Disco Vs Trooper - shocking result!

Yeah, I think they are.

My criteria: Reliability first. On and off-road. Speed is no issue, I do not care. The others, economy? towing? ease of

It should perform good everywhere ;-)

Kind regards, Erik-Jan.

Bong! Wrong answer. I grant you economy. But Defenders and Discoverys are regarded as superlative towing vehicles. That's why you see so many of them.

Ease of maintenance is more of a point of discussion. I've not had any direct experience of japanese cars in this situation but I think you'll find the modularity of the various LR models (not necessarily the more recent models like P38a) means they're pretty much like big Meccano sets.

And you lose also on cost of parts. We've seen several times in this NG that LR parts are in most cases far cheaper, and also easier to get hold of, than other 4x4s'. This probably isn't the case in some parts of the world, like Africa, where Toyota in particular really got their act together, but it is in most parts of Europe, where most of them are used.

Now, reliability... I think many people here would admit that compared to something like Toyotas, LRs are not necessarily as reliable as they could be. But I can drive around on any given day and see dozens of Land Rovers dating from the 70s, 60s and 50s. On the other hand, I don't see huge numbers of any other vehicle from that era knocking around. This has to say something at least for their general longevity.

Finally to performance. Off-road, which is where LR aim to perform very well, LRs score very highly among the regular 4x4 brigade (to distinguish from Unimogs, tractors etc). All of us have seen stuff on TV, off-road even ts etc where LRs have, time and time again, pulled other 4x4s out of the brown stuff. Now, you may occasionally have seen a Land Cruiser pull a Discovery or something out of a big hole, but the statistics are loaded in favour of the Land Rover I'm afraid. They're not totally unbeatable, but they have a pretty good winning formula.

On-road, the more modern LRs are actually not bad, but if you want a good on-road 4x4 you're really looking at something like an X5, although of course the Range Rover actually scores very highly in both areas, if you can afford one. I do high motorway miles in my Disco II and the on-road handling is good, the only complaint I'd have is that it's a bit noisier than something like my Volvo V70 was.

I'd leave you with the thought that, as per a different thread, the UK and US military use Land Rovers widely when we go round invading other less fortunate countries for nonsensical political reasons. The US have a good choice here - they could easily use Toyotas if they wanted. But they don't. Do you think the US Army would use Land Rovers if they thought they were unreliable, difficult to maintain and not very good off-road? Of course they wouldn't.

Sorry Erik-Jan, I give you 1.5/6, or 25%.

David

Bro-in-Law visited a year or two back in his Trooper Citation. Alternator failed during visit. Nearest one located in Birmingham (we were in West Wales). Seven days to get it shipped here and - wait for it - 700GBP.

Fitted, obviously ;-)

Very strange.... Here in the Netherlands, a town (17.000 inhabitants) where I live I can get one within two miles from my home. After market indeed. But why go to the dealer for just an alternator. Costs...125 Euro's (around 110 USD, don't know in GBP) Kind regards, Erik-Jan.

I think you see so many of them because of the looks... They certainly look great.

Agree.

Parts may be cheap in the U.K. but certainly not on the continent.

Has to do with love for the cars. They keep on restoring them. And they should. I love to see all the old one's around. No one is interested in restoring an old Japanese rig. They do not have the looks. They are just trown away and replaced by new ones. The lovers are keeping the old LR's driving not the users. N.B. I would really like to own one of these Australian Defenders fitted with a non turbo 3.9 litre Isuzu diesel engine. Problem, living on the continent: They are only available in right hand drive.

Statistics.....You are right. Even overhere you will find more LR's as Troopers. The latest are rare.

Even the Dutch army uses Defenders as well as Mercedes. The U.S. also uses a large number of Humvee's. Defenders is a minority and they are not street legal in the U.S. anymore. Not available for the local people in the U.S.

I would like to give you 90% because of your serious response.

Kind regards, Erik-Jan.

On or around Sun, 23 May 2004 00:49:46 +0200, Erik-Jan Geniets enlightened us thusly:

I daresay you can get aftermarket ones here. It may not be possible to get one on spec though, it might need ordering.

If it not in stock overhere they do a rebuilt of the broken one. Takes a couple of hours. Includes a one year warranty also. Kind regards, Erik-Jan.

Fair enough. There were Isuzu dealers much nearer than Birmingham when my B-in-L needed his, but none had any in stock, and the one that did took a week to ship it. I don't know what this tells us, but it aint very good.

Erm... my point was that this was an Isuzu part, following the thread that said Jap parts were expensive. QED, I think. We all know that aftermarket parts are cheaper, but that's true of any car. He wanted an Isuzu part for an Isuzu vehicle - not an unreasonable request.

700 quid!

Car manufactures do not make alternators, starters, exhaust systems, brake parts, spark plugs, light bulbs, shock aborbers, wipers, tow hooks, bearings, or whatever. So after market is as good as original. Kind regards, Erik-Jan.

Sorry, but that is absolute rubbish.

SOME aftermarket parts are as good as original, some are actually identical. However, many are not.

Even parts which are built to an identical design may be manufactured to wider tolerances, using less stringent quality control and inferior manufacturing methods.

Whilst car manufacturers do not make, for example, diesel fuel filters they do place very stringent demands on their suppliers and will quite often have a resident employee on site overseeing. There are hefty penalties for supplying duff parts; perfectly good parts in the wrong packaging; parts to the wrong gate or 10 minutes late. Even perfect parts that do not have all the required manufacturing data available.

So, lets say you are the manufacturer of alternators. Perhaps you make them for a well-known car manufacturer, plus a number of plain-box aftermarket suppliers. On a given day your temperature sensors fail, so you cannot prove to the car manufacturer that your plant was operating within the design temperatures. What do you do with the 10,000 alternators you made that day? Throw them away? No, you sell them to the aftermarket.

99% of times they will be fine, but the car manufacturer doesn't require expensive temperature logging (that ultimately adds to the cost of their vehicle) without good reason...

BTW, I have worked in a fair number of Tier 1 and Tier 2 manufacturing facilities, but never one which made alternators, so the above does not refer to any specific manufacturer or part. It's just a general observation about automotive manufacturing.

On or around Sun, 23 May 2004 23:46:13 +0200, Erik-Jan Geniets enlightened us thusly:

that depends. some aftermarket "recon" units are no such thing, or are worked on to a lower standard.

aftermarket new stuff may or may not be as good as OEM depending on who made it. most aftermarket electrical bits like alternators is reconditioned, though.

Agreed, very true. Kind regards, Erik-Jan

I think you are missing the point, Erik-Jan. I *know* that the alternators aren't made by Isuzu. I *know* that aftermarket parts are cheaper. My example was in support of the statement that Jap parts (i.e. spare parts ordered through the dealer network) are more expensive than Land Rover (much earlier in the thread). Genuine Isuzu alternator - 700GBP. Genuine Land Rover alternator - 100GPB approx? Dunno, never had to buy one. Mine have always been reliable ;-)

If we follow your argument to its logical conclusion, you could say that no car has more expensive parts than any other, because you can always find a cheap aftermarket version for anything. And that is nonsense.

In message , Erik-Jan Geniets writes

That's about 3 times the population of the whole of West Wales (not counting the sheep).

On or around Mon, 24 May 2004 18:28:24 +0000 (UTC), "Richard Brookman" enlightened us thusly:

about £300 for a 300 TDi.

aftermarket ones are about a ton-40.

mind, that's the hundred amp big-sod one.

I daresay the more mundane 65A or whatever are cheaper.

hmmm. that reminds me, meant to get new belts for the disco, the ones on it look a bit old.

I used to, but my bed collapsed from all the notches I had carved. Happy days...

Count the sheep, that is.

So, you live in Wales or Cumbria.

You see so many of them in the UK because they are locally built.. Nothing to do with their towing reliability, maybe something to do with chauvinistic buying habits..

right again, Isuzu stuff is prohibitively expensive.

See above, has to do with traditional buying patterns etc not reliability. Isuzus are very reliable, Land Cruisers probably are too, cant speak for the rest of the Jap 4x4s.

not sure, but if LRs are less reliable then its a moot point.

Noise is something we all have to live with in the SUV world..

They would because of political expediency. Besides, they prefer their Hummers..