foglamps

being hacked off with the number of clueless wankers with foglights on in the dark and rain, making extra glare which is no earthly use to anyone, I did this:

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Won't do any good, of course. But feel free to sign it anyway.

Reply to
Austin Shackles
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According to the manual for one of my cars, in some territories (I don't know which) the fog lamps are required to turn on when you press the fog light button, but when you next turn off the car, when you start it again, the fog lamps have to be off automatically and only turn on when you press the button again so you can't turn them on and accidentally leave them on for months.

Reply to
Ian Rawlings

Austin,

Unless something has changed recently that I'm not aware of (and that is clearly a possibility) I don't see any legal requirement to use fog lights instead of dipped headlamps in poor visibility.

Section 25 of RVLR says: QUOTE > 25. Requirements about the use of headlamps and front fog lamps

to be used, on a road a vehicle which is fitted with obligatory dipped-beam headlamps unless every such lamp is kept lit :-

road for the purposes of section 81 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 by virtue of a system of street lighting when it is lit; and

ENDQUOTE

There are some exceptions to this in para 2, but they aren't generally relevant. Sub-para (b) suggests that dipped beam is a requirement in poor visibility except in the case where the front fog lights are within

400mm of the edges of the vehicle (the one exception in para 2 that might be relevant to motor cars).

Whilst I applaud the sentiment of your petition and find the mis-use of front (and rear) fog lamps to be a real nuisance I can't sign it as currently worded.

Reply to
SteveG

From memory the Highway Code says you can only use foglights when visibility is below 100 metres so it's already illegal to use them at other times. Another case of a good law that is not enforced.

Reply to
Bob Hobden

Sorry, Austin, but the use of them is already covered by rule 226 and

236 of the Highway Code, which quote sections 25 and 27 of the Statutory Instrument I'm pointing to.

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In particular the bit in rule 236 about not causing undue dazzle to other road users and turning them off when visibility is more than 100 metres. At a push, this *could* just about be interpreted as using them after dark, but it's too much faff for the police to enforce it, apparently. I was involved in a heated discussion about this a while back in one of the UK law groups.

So, it would seem the abuse is covered by the law already, but it's not being enforced.

Reply to
John Williamson

You're not kidding

On the way home from Keighley this evening I had some boy racer sat on my tail with foglamps on and didn't know where the dipswitch was

Flaming dipstick

DieSea

Reply to
DieSea

A certain type of young boy racer do it deliberately as they think it's "cool" (I asked one), I always flash my foglights now if I see them coming towards me hoping that eventually they might understand the rest of us think they're dickheads.

Is it me or is it the small Peugeots that have the brightest/biggest foglamps?

Reply to
Bob Hobden

On or around Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:44:22 +0000, John Williamson enlightened us thusly:

that's not what I'm after, though... I want legislation so they can only be either-or with the dipped lights.

The law prescribes 2 and only 2 dipped lights, all other lights over 7W should go out when the dipped beam is on. You can't have 4 dipped lights (that work simlutaneously).

Further, foglamps and their function/aim are not tested in the MOT and I'm after that as well.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

On or around Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:52:08 GMT, SteveG enlightened us thusly:

permit to be used, on a road a vehicle which is fitted with obligatory dipped-beam headlamps unless

restricted road for the purposes of section 81 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 by virtue of a system of street lighting when it is lit; and

The exemption provides that you're not required to keep dipped lights illuminated where a pair of fog lamps is illuminated instead, in reduced visibility, so yes, you're right about that bit - it doesn;t actually proscribe using both.

However, you're still only allowed 2 dipped beams on vehicles 1991 or later (if I read it right) - you can have another pair, which dip the other way, provided only 1 pair work at any time. It's one of those grey areas, I guess, and as such the regulations could do with improvement.

It does look as though older vehicles can have more optional dipped beams. I guess it would take more study to be sure what the law says, which is good enough reason to specify it better.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

It seems a bit pointless having the dipped headlamps on *with* foglamps as the idea was to keep the light low and reduce reflected glare from the bad fogs we used to have, having dipped headlamps on as well defeated the object of this. They should be considered for MOT purposes as 'dipped beams', i.e. cut off above horizontal and the order 'to be used only in conditions of fog and falling snow' when mounted less 500mm from the road rigidly enforced. Having said that, we don't get fog like we used to and I suppose some people have to find another (albeit illegal) use for them. If they are treated as auxiliary lighting (as in having a long range and extra power and without diffused lenses) they should only come on when headlamp main beam is used and go out when main beam is dipped, regardless of whether they are switched separately or not, but I that that is the case anyway.

Reply to
Oily

"Oily" wrote

I thought that Foglight lenses worked by scattering the light which is why they are annoying in clear visibility for those in front or coming the other way. They don't cut off at the horizontal. Dipped beam is not so good in fog as it directs/concentrates the beam which then gets bounced back by the water droplets.

Reply to
Bob Hobden

"Bob Hobden" wrote..........

Did you read the word "should"?

As does the main beam etc..

Reply to
Oily

Yes but if they are made to cut off at the horizontal would it not make them as useless as dipped beam in fog? Mind you things have moved on quickly with reflector and lens design so perhaps they could do something now.

Reply to
Bob Hobden

The original fog light design, which I see no reason to have changed, had a very sharp horizontal cut off to reduce the amount of light reflected back to the driver. The amount of light scattered vertically upwards should be much less than a dipped beam. Correctly aligned, I don't see how they are any different to (worse than) 'normal' headlights from another driver's viewpoint. Perhaps it is not fog lights that are being complained about.

The fog light problem about which many seem to get wound up is not something that I've found an issue unlike badly set up head lights (or more likely headlights pointing in the sky 'cos there's too much load in the back). Is the fog light problem purely an urban issue?

This MOT thing that stops you having over-lowered headlights to leave some leeway for overloading hasn't helped with the searchlight headlight problem.

I used to use a pair of crossed fog lights (mounted fairly high) in addition to normal headlights - brilliant for driving round country lanes but probably not permitted any more (if it ever was!).

Reply to
Dougal

It's probably due to the fact that they are mounted very low that results in them being set higher, and also that they are not foglamps at all, just high powered auxiliary driving lamps which should be extinguished on dip according to the regulations and not a problem at all. With the fogs that we used to get, the most important thing was to yellow them out (if they weren't originally) to further reduce the glare as the fogs were really 'pea soupers' and 'white' lights were no use at all, even dipped beam.

Reply to
Oily

I well remember fog so thick I needed my passenger to watch the kerb/verge with the door window open calling "left a bit"- "right a bit" to keep us on the road.

Its the rear fog lamp users that bug me the most. Following a car with those on when its wet is a real strain. The biggest danger is in the fact that the are so bright they mask the brake lights.

Mike

Reply to
Muddymike

"> With the fogs that

I also well remember the time when everyone drove on sidelights in lit areas, and you got flashed if you still had your headlights on!! Much better in wet conditions.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

I still do that in 30 mph built up areas, much easier to see stray pedestrians etc. when opposing traffic does the same. Distant memories now I'm afraid, I've even been stopped by police and told to use dipped headlamps who weren't amused when I told them I was saving electric therefore saving costs and global warming.

Reply to
Oily

I remember riding pillion down a country road in Sussex decades ago with my father after a discussion about lights he turned his onto sidelights only, it was a bright moonlit night, and after a very short while when our eyes became accustomed to the light you could see much better and further than with the lights on. He drove on for miles like that. Ok until someone comes the other way and destroys your night vision. Trouble is there are a few more vehicles on the roads now!

Reply to
Bob Hobden

Many years ago my sister lived on an island with no police on it, and one night she and her husband went for a ride on a trials bike with no lights along the roads and could see well enough by moonlight. Sadly they didn't see someone else doing exactly the same thing coming in the other direction and they all ended up in hospital! They made a full recovery but didn't do that again.

Reply to
Ian Rawlings

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