No more Llama events at Ironbridge!

Below is a copy of a letter i handed out today to participants after my event held at the Ironbridge site in Telford:

" It is with regret that i have to inform you that after 12 years of using this site, Llama 4x4 will no longer be organising or associated to any offroad events staged at this venue.

The direction certain aspects of the events have taken is not in keeping with our policies or aims for organising offroad events. Circumstances have taken the control of these aspects away from us leaving no alternative but to lose these dates from our calendar.

This decision was not taken lightly but has been made with confidence that it will be to benefit of our events and consequently your enjoyment of them.

Many thanks for your custom over the last few months and years and i look forward to your support at events in the future. "

The letter ended with a contact number to enquire about our events / services ( 01938.850382 ).

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter

David LLAMA 4x4

Reply to
David_LLAMA 4x4
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What's the story behind this David?

Reply to
Matt

It all started to change when a new landowner purchased the land.....

There have been many disagreements since but now it has come to a head....

Part of the problem is that I feel that the site is simply not worth as much as I am being charged! The only way i can combat this is to put the price up but even that is interfered with by the landowner: Any increase I put on they want half of - that means I need to put twice as much on the entry fee as I need just to get what I need to cover costs. This is clearly the start of a vicious circle ending up with customers having to pay too much for what they are getting.

This is not however the major issue, though the landowners quest for more and more money from the site is at the heart of it: If I am honest then probably as much as half of the customers are what I would call ' a bunch of muppets racing round a field in knackered old 4x4 wrecks pulled out of the scrapyard for the day'. That is not what I define as offroading and as such do not want to be associated to it. Neither do I want the job of policing people who are not really interested in doing it properly anyway! My obvious route would be to banish them from the site but this is where the control is taken away from me. The ( IMHO ) over interfering landowner seems to want anything as long as they pay at the gate thus increasing their revenue. My events were only mine if there was a problem - when all was well there was the landowner to claim all the glory..... this is not the way I am prepared to run 'my' business and so chose to walk away and be involved in the events no more. I do not want the rest of my business ( and hobby ) to be associated to that style of event.

I will now have to work to replace the money i earned there but at least I will be happy that I am both in control of my own affairs and also only associated to real offroading, not just the use of knackered 4x4's as a cheap alternative to Alton towers!!

David LLAMA 4x4

Reply to
David_LLAMA 4x4

Ah well I shall miss it. I would probably fall into the muppet camp but make no apology for it! I actually hadn't been for a while since I've actually become more risk averse over time and no longer consider a set of hoodsticks and a wooly hat to be adequate safety equipment. I'm not sure that there still isn't an argument for consenting adults to be able to choose their own level of risk though - although tearing about endangering others is another matter.

My fondest memories of Ironbrige will probably be the Fiat Pandas, Ladas and other scrap metal that had one last glorious offroad outing. Oh - and pulling the front bumper off a Range Rover attempting a recovery.

I'm not to sure how you define offroading or what 'doing it properly' means. But I have a horrible feeling it involves a lot of money!

Good luck anyway David,

Cheers,

Matt B

Reply to
Matt

Well for a start, using a bumper as a recovery point certainly ISN'T 'doing it properly!

Reply to
SimonJ
[snipped]

Thanks for the more complete explanation.

It does sound a little like some elements of the "pay 'n' play" days I've been to up here, when the traffic on the course can start to resemble the school run, though the local club does do safety scrutineering.

But that is very much a "have fun" environment.

Reply to
David G. Bell

David_LLAMA 4x4 posted:

Is the Landowner trying to steal your customers and run open days in your place ?

I think they come to every and any 'open' event .. but really this sounds a bit like sour grapes. After all, what is 'off-roading' ? I started with a wreck from the local auctions, unfit for the road, but driveable .. now I wouldn't dream of it, but everyone has to start somewhere. Why not just have an area where anyone can let rip 'no-holds-barred-noresponsibility accepted' etc ?

Heheheh, we all have to work a bit .. ;)

Reply to
Paul - xxx

On or around Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:57:02 +0100, "Paul - xxx" enlightened us thusly:

I suspect that some git would find a reason to either ban it or sue you in spite of disclaimers. 's getting very difficult to have functional disclaimers of responsibility. I suppose that if you have a written disclaimer which the individuals sign, they'd have a job disputing it, but you have to be careful of that thing about unreasonable contract terms. The other possibility is that you have an arrangement where they don't (officially) pay, and therefore you have no contract, even implied.

sadly, the off-road thing at Pontardawe seems to be defunct. Landowner can get more from some bloody euro scheme for not farming, or some such crap.

In a way, I wish we still had the place we used to live in about 20 years ago - 30 acres of land up a hillside, with bogs, slopes, ruts, the lot. I could make a fookin' ace off-road site there, but it's 20 years too late, buggrit. Have to have a word with sister's BF, I reckon he's got the makings of an off-road site on his farm, and if suitably policed, it shouldn't have too much impact on the farming side either.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

Ah....Ponty.

Is the Folk Festival on this year?

Reply to
Neil Brownlee

Austin Shackles posted:

Yeah, same as we sign for when we race formally .. ;) These are standard terms absolving organisers of all responsibility for the users personal injuries etc etc .. ;)

OK, four crates of Newcastle Brown and we can all go play on my sister's farm .. but that's a bit flat. Though I guess that's what a JCB's for, like they do just up t' road at Loversall .. ;)

Heheheh, I sense a hastily concocted plan forming ..

Reply to
Paul - xxx

Big problem is that despite signing a disclaimer you can still do whatever you have signed to say that you won't - ie. you can still sue even if you sign a disclaimer.

I would suggest that the landowner is after my custom.

The other thing I said was that I did not to be associated to such behaviour. I am not saying that it should not happe, I am just saying that as both David the offroader and david of Llama 4x4 I do not wish to be associated to it !!

David LLAMA 4x4

Reply to
David_LLAMA 4x4

Sorry to hear it David, I had never quite made it to one of these events although I know the site very well having used it for outdoor development and corporate events. I'd been hoping to make it eventually . . .

Frankly, from your description, I think you are well out of it. Without a coherent set of policies and implementation and a clear authority for control of the event I think you were heading for trouble. Not intentionally . . . but it would have come. Part of the firm I work for consults in leisure site safety and we come across this kind of situation frequently. Not only with off-road driving but with steam fairs, clay pigeon shooting, quads and buggies - the lot!

When responsibility and authority are split there is often a messy court case at the end! I presume you had the necessary measures in place to have the site exempt from the Road Traffic Acts? Assuming that elementary precaution and assuming you were the nominated 'Organiser' on the insurances the landowner was putting himself in a very exposed position overriding your control unless he / she had been nominated the 'Organiser' leaving you as what . . . 'Chief marshal?'.

Did you not have sufficient marshals to manage the gate and check vehicles and licenses yourself?

I visited Lee James's 'Open Day' last month and was mega impressed. The site owner there (well, Leaseholder I think) had got together with him to make sure they were both covered and that lots of fun could be had with minimal risk to life and limb.

Regrettably I think most 'play day' type events are going to be simply closed down over the next couple of years caught in a 'pincer' as the HSE and the Police apply the H&S and RTAs and insurers (there are only two active underwriters in this field in any case) hike the premiums or simply refuse cover. It is already hitting many commercial operators and clubs.

Anyway, thanks for your enthusiasm and for trying . . . I see someone had hinted that your 'proper way' was expensive. Well, the problem with 'cheap' is that all the costs are loaded onto the individual or the family of the 'next one' to suffer a preventable mishap. I'm sure your risk appraisal, vehicle and site inspections would have been adequate to prevent happenings like that around a year ago, I think, when a mans knees were wrecked by a fallen sheep fence obscured by long grass and mud that a vehicle travelling too fast snagged and dragged . . .

By the way, If matey there is operating a dangerous event and especially if he is doing it without the cover of your insurance I hope you have reported your suspicions to the H&S Inspectorate?

Good luck in your next ventures! Lurch

Reply to
Lurch

Sorry to hear it David, I had never quite made it to one of these events although I know the site very well having used it for outdoor development and corporate events. I'd been hoping to make it eventually . . .

Frankly, from your description, I think you are well out of it. Without a coherent set of policies and implementation and a clear authority for control of the event I think you were heading for trouble. Not intentionally . . . but it would have come. Part of the firm I work for consults in leisure site safety and we come across this kind of situation frequently. Not only with off-road driving but with steam fairs, clay pigeon shooting, quads and buggies - the lot!

When responsibility and authority are split there is often a messy court case at the end! I presume you had the necessary measures in place to have the site exempt from the Road Traffic Acts? Assuming that elementary precaution and assuming you were the nominated 'Organiser' on the insurances the landowner was putting himself in a very exposed position overriding your control unless he / she had been nominated the 'Organiser' leaving you as what . . . 'Chief marshal?'.

Did you not have sufficient marshals to manage the gate and check vehicles and licenses yourself?

I visited Lee James's 'Open Day' last month and was mega impressed. The site owner there (well, Leaseholder I think) had got together with him to make sure they were both covered and that lots of fun could be had with minimal risk to life and limb.

Regrettably I think most 'play day' type events are going to be simply closed down over the next couple of years caught in a 'pincer' as the HSE and the Police apply the H&S and RTAs and insurers (there are only two active underwriters in this field in any case) hike the premiums or simply refuse cover. It is already hitting many commercial operators and clubs.

Anyway, thanks for your enthusiasm and for trying . . . I see someone had hinted that your 'proper way' was expensive. Well, the problem with 'cheap' is that all the costs are loaded onto the individual or the family of the 'next one' to suffer a preventable mishap. I'm sure your risk appraisal, vehicle and site inspections would have been adequate to prevent happenings like that around a year ago, I think, when a mans knees were wrecked by a fallen sheep fence obscured by long grass and mud that a vehicle travelling too fast snagged and dragged . . .

By the way, If matey there is operating a dangerous event and especially if he is doing it without the cover of your insurance I hope you have reported your suspicions to the H&S Inspectorate?

Good luck in your next ventures! Lurch

Reply to
Lurch

David_LLAMA 4x4 posted:

Fair points, and good luck .. ;)

Reply to
Paul - xxx

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