OT: Auto Gearboxes - general

Sorry to be so OT, but I've been searching and asking without much joy. Apologies to anyone who has seen earlier postings elsewhere.

I've had 3 Carlton/Omega automatics. The gearboxes were fine on the first 2 - went to 200k with no gearbox problems. The 3rd is just under

100k, and the gearbox is fine - it's just the rest of the car that they ruined by the "facelift". I've been looking at big-inside cars to replace it and had almost decided to revert to manual with a new Nissan Note (also have a scrappage trade-in), but its wheel well won't take a full sized spare. Other similar vehicles are all too small internally so heads front or back hit the roof or sides of the car or knees have to be removed to get in the back..

So we ended up looking at a s/h Skoda Octavia with DSG gearbox. The Fabia is too small.

Does anyone have any fact-based opinions on these? Does having 2 clutches and 2 gearboxes in there make them twice or half as likely to fail? These gearboxes seem to mainly come attached to dual-mass flywheels. I read that gearbox repair costs are £1000, £3500 or cheap because the clutches can possibly be replaced separately, but everything I've read seems to be based on guesswork or hearsay. . Anyone have any fact-based views? I seem to remember from my Ford Prefect days that ordinary clutches had to be replaced several times in the life of the car.

PS changed the Defender for an auto Disco (now up to 160k) because of knee problems, hence the auto love-in, but maybe a car clutch would be lighter and OK. Need this vehicle to outlast me, and there is very little spare cash. The mature lady we transport every day can't easily get into the Disco..

Reply to
Bill
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In message , Bill writes

Like you I love autos but I'm afraid I can't help with DSGs as I've not had any experience of them.

I do have a V8 Defender auto 1998 which I am very reluctant to part with but unfortunately LR no longer offer it as a Defender option. Wish they would do a DSG

I drove an Astra estate today through a bit of traffic. Why does everyone put up with manual gearboxes?

Reply to
hugh

"Bill" wrote

If you want a huge inside car then look no further than a Skoda Superb, even comes in cavernous Estate now. I know it's a crap name but don't knock it until you have seen/tried one.

Reply to
Bob Hobden

In message , hugh writes

One thing I can't get my head round is how a DSG would work getting out of my drive, which involves (Disco) full lock backwards up a slope. The pavement is also screened to either side, so I have to be able to stop instantly if a child or doddery person walks across at the wrong moment.

The torque converter deals with this fine, slipping for England, but if I understand right, a DSG is either in or out of gear, and there is no clutch pedal to slip. Does a computer slip the clutch? I suppose I'll have to insist on a test drive backwards up a hill!

Reply to
Bill

In message , Bob Hobden writes

The dealer has got 2 DSG ones, one of which is in my price range. I've been holding off because they are both V6 diesels and are in a car tax bracket that is on an upward slope. I was also worried that the mpg would not be as good. I simply don't trust the politicians and the tax grab they will have to make to make us pay for their and the banks' incompetence. The big/little Nissan is low tax and dropping, the Octavia is just about car tax affordable and only on a small upward trajectory.

Reply to
Bill

If car tax is a major part of the costs of you running a car then I suggest that taxis might be a better option as you can't be doing many miles. B-)

The last year ownership of a DII doing 17445 miles:

Service, MOT, Tax 605.82 Repairs 1172.52 Insurance 337.00 Fuel 2793.60

OK =A3560 of that =A31172.52 Repairs bill is the winter tyres that I don't need to stay legal. That little lot gives a running cost of =A35270.94. Car Tax at =A3215 is not worth worrying about.

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

In message , Dave Liquorice writes

I agree, but the £215 on the Omega only happened after an outcry about older vehicles, and it's the direction of taxation that is worrying me. Add the green brigade, a huge tax hole and who is the easy target?

FWIW, my annual mileage is all over the place. I'm retired, but get called on a lot to be the main family taxi. This involves lots of tiny local journeys, plus sudden (10 minute notice!) longer dashes which often involve 200 or 400 mile round trips, and can often be needed 2 to

4 times a week..

I'm the only family driver, so one or other car sits in the path. I need the Disco, it would have been nice to get the other car to be something like a Nissan Note, which was the only small car I felt comfortable in the front and back seats. Why do the bodies all slope in so much? And why on earth design the Note with a wheel well smaller than the wheels? A Disco plus a V6 saloon doesn't really feel like a good combination.

The Omega was used for business, and I've now retired, so it's hopeless for short journeys on "full choke". About 17 to 20 mpg. The auto Disco does 25 to 30 mpg (had a mild celebration when we got 31 on one tankful), so I have become convinced that a diesel may be better for lots of short journeys, as well as for the longer runs. This runs across the general advice about low mileage users being better with petrol. It also means the same fuel is used in both cars and the boat. Tax and insurance are the fixed costs, and I need to minimise them. If I don't do many miles for one reason or another (eg illness), I don't get fuel and repair bills.

This has turned into a bit of a quagmire for me, and auto diesels from dealers that I trust are somewhat rare. Hence the original question about DSG gearboxes. I believe the "Superb" can't have a rear wiper either. That's another thing, like the spare wheel, that's now pretty essential.

I can drone on forever like this. Sorry.

Reply to
Bill

I've never tried a DSG but I would suggest that you do to see if its a problem in your driveway or wherever.

Why is a non full-size spare a problem? It's nice to have but I've got an MX-5 and the ordinary roadwheels won't fit in the boot at all. There is a space saver spare, which limits you to about 50mph and it's no good if you get a puncture and have a passenger but it's never been a problem yet.

Does your Omega have rear wash wipe? Saloons generally don't. The saloons I've had like a Carlton and a Passat didn't have it because the aerodynamics meant that road crap didn't get deposited on the rear windscreen. I am pretty certain that a Superb estate will have it, a quick google for pictures of one suggests that it does.

Reply to
Douglas Payne

Weight and space. Though F knows what you do with the real rim/tyre if you get a flat.

Only a problem if the aerodynamics of the car dump road muck on the rear window. Broadly speaking blunt backed things like hatches or estates get mucky rear windows saloons with proper boots don't.

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

In article , hugh writes

[caution: rant follows!]

I have a VAG dual-mass flywheel gearbox on our 02 people-carrier (Alhambra), bought "s/h" from a main dealer with

Reply to
SpamTrapSeeSig

In message , Douglas Payne writes

I regularly visit a boat storage and repair area down a long unmade road, huge potholes and metal fastenings aplenty. I also have to bump up and down onto various kerbs so that the person who is too infirm to climb into the Disco can get in. I've had 3 occasions with the Omega in the last 6 years where I've had to change a wheel, and no matter what they say, I really don't feel safe driving a car any distance with 3 wheels one size and one smaller diameter. And as Dave L says, where do you put the wheel you take off?

The Superb Estate is too new for me to be able to afford. My Omegas have all been estates. Maybe it's not a problem with a hatchback. Obviously my test drive will have to be full lock, backwards, uphill, in the rain. :-)

Reply to
Bill

In message , SpamTrapSeeSig writes

That is my attitude to Vauxhall. In my case, it's the complexity of the thing and the amount of cabling and number of possibly dodgy connectors, but especially the cost of parts.

The Carlton was straightforward, part galvanised and, when I did it myself, simple to understand and maintain. It also took an 8x4 sheet of ply in the back, which is why I stuck to Omegas. But now I have an unreliable car from a company that's for sale one day then not the next with electronics that the main agent's diagnostics can't seem to diagnose.

My personal diagnoser points to a component that should cost a few pounds, but is only sold in a larger component costing hundreds. Main agent seemed to be just changing bits at random and high cost. It may be greener than the older versions, but when the agent says they won't go on unless I spend £1700 on the next repair, any green concepts and I disappear over the horizon.

I don't worry about aircon although that's a separate complaint with the Omega and its facelifted aerodynamics that hit you with sub audible pressure waves when you open any window at reasonable speed, but I really appreciate the rant..

Reply to
Bill

"Bill" wrote ... Bob Hobden writes

I've read that the normal 2 litre TDi 170 SE "Superb" is excellent.

Reply to
Bob Hobden

In message , SpamTrapSeeSig writes

The fact that it's out of warranty doesn't automatically relieve the supplier of liability. The warranty is a voluntary offering by the supplier and does not affect your legal rights under the sale of goods act. You could go to the small claims court which costs next to nothing even if you lose and argue that a flywheel, which is not a serviceable item should last the life time of the car and if it fails in 12 months t is obviously not of suitable quality. If you have evidence that this is a class failure then that would only strengthen your argument. Frpm what I've read on other groups dual mass flywheels are not just a problem on VAG cars (and TD5s) they fail on several other makes, which is not surprising given the number of joint ventures around in the field of engines.

Reply to
hugh

In article , hugh writes

Indeed so.

Perhaps I should have. But, in the absence of time and resources to do this I elected to pass on it. I've simply made a mental note to be very cautious about VAG products in future.

I don't: the repairers do/did, and that's the problem.

They have a far stronger vested interest in staying sweet with their major manufacturers, even if they're not agents. So it's reasonable for an indy repairer to express sympathy, but not offer help in that situation, because of the risk of being blackballed by the agents from whom he gets referrals (probably) and some specialist parts. They have the power to make life very difficult for anyone in the trade prepared to stand up in court against sharp practice.

It ought to be an area where Trading Standards can do the investigation, but they're completely overworked nowadays.

So it seems. The other issue is that, whilst customer expectation is that a flywheel is of indefinite life, the trade know it isn't (as do I, now!), and operate the spares/repair channel accordingly. That's also where the bulk of their profit comes from. So I'd stand up in court and say, "When I was buying the car, nobody mentioned these flywheels break/wear out!", and they'd put up a motoring expert of some sort, to say, "But _everyone_ knows they need to be replaced from time to time."

As a general point, what would stuff the manufacturers concerned (and that's not necessarily VAG, as you point out) would be getting MTBF numbers out of them under a court order or something. It's a good guess that the worst offenders have a very good idea of how reliable these things are, and data to prove it.

But now I'm straying into fantasyland...

Regards,

S.

Reply to
SpamTrapSeeSig

In message , SpamTrapSeeSig writes

In my experience small court decisions are not entirely based on logic. The judge would most likely be a car owner, which would help you. Also depends whether the judge likes the look of your face or not - and in my case - not.

Reply to
hugh

FWIW I've heard nothing good about dual mass flywheels, they all seem to fail expensively and often. My Toyota Surf had one that failed, and was replaced by a much cheaper solid flywheel. I've never been able to notice any difference in noise, vibration or anything else.

I'm sticking to the simple stuff in future, at least when the clutch arm went on the 90 it was only about =A315 for a new one, and 30 seconds to replace it. We won't talk about the hours spent actually getting at it, but at least I could do it myself, unlike the replacement flywheel on the Surf. The man said he had to remove the front diff in order to tilt the engine to get the gearboxes out!

Gordon

80,86,90
Reply to
gordon

They are known problems on Transit's and heavies too.

Dave B.

Reply to
Dave Baxter

In message , Dave Baxter writes

They are known problems - full stop.

Reply to
hugh

Before dual mass flywheels I could count the flywheels I'd replaced on one hand.

I'd hate to own a car with a DMFW, I've seen em melt the nylon parts, crack, break up, seize up, I've seen an internal spring on a VW DMFW wear its way through the side of the flywheel and destroy the gearbox bellhousing by machining a groove round the inside.

I suspect they aren't up to the punishment a modern driver gives them, to me they seem too lazy allways riding the clutch instead of using the handbrake.

DMFWs can't dissipate the heat of abuse like a solid flywheel.

Reply to
Jon

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