OT: duty of fuels

Greetings One & All

Was discussing some 'alternative' means of powering vehicles with a mate yesterday - like you do :)

The question of duty reared it's ugly head.

When one uses mains electicity to charge an electric car is one compelled to declare the usage and pay duty (in the UK)?

If one were to use a diesel generator to charge it, is the diesel used subject to duty?

We couldn't figure out whether duty is payable on all fuel except for some specific usage or if the reverse is true.

Clues/answers/comment appreciated.

Thanks for reading.

Reply to
William Tasso
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I'm no expert but I'd say as the duty applies to the fuel used to power the vehicle then no in both cases, provided the fuel is not on the vehicle during use. I'd guess that HM would have a different view if the fuel were on the vehicle even if it were only powering the genny that produces the charge. TonyB

Reply to
TonyB

No. There is presently no road tax for any EV at the moment, either electricity or license though you need to display a tax disk. No MOT either though if you have an accident you'd be hard pressed to prove your vehicle was in roadworthy condition if you didn't have one.

If the vehicle was moving and you're charging, I think you'd find it impossible to prove that the diesel wasn't being used to power the vehicle and therefore is exempt from road fuel duty. Charging stationary at the side of the road with no connection between the charger and the rest of the vehicle whilst moving, I think you would get off with that as no one could prove where you got the electricity from, very grey area I would say and you'd be best looking at the laws of the land in depth to resolve that one.

However, if you look at it practically:

You're going to need a big diesel genny to get enough power to an EV, especially as you'll have a literally a ton of batteries to drag around.

Big diesel generators aren't quiet, aren't cheap, aren't small and aren't particularly efficient compared to modern diesel vehicle engines (a generalisation, I know)

You'll need an onboard charging system of some complexity to make sure the batteries are charged correctly and to control the generator.

If you generator isn't big enough to supply more than your average needs you're going to have to stop and wait for it to charge, so if you have to stop anyway you're as well trying to charge from a electric socket where power costs are a fraction of diesel costs. Plus you're going to have a big diesel generator thumping away full speed which is slightly embarassing and not very enviromentally friendly spewing out diesel fumes where other people are likely to be stopped as well.

Electric vehicles are great things, and they can work well. But they have their limitations, and which are substantial:

Heavy weight - you need AH to get range and and voltage to get performance and the more AH and V you fit the heavier it gets so the more you need - you get into a vicious circle, a good EV balances that just right.

Maintenance of batteries - you are heavily discharging lots of (expensive) batteries on a regular basis so either you need to check each battery manually for any signs of differing capacity or you need to fit an automated system to do this. Otherwise your whole vehicle performance and range is held back by maybe only one poor cell. Maintaining your batteries electronically is pretty essential if you can't replace electrolyte yourself (like if you're using Optimas or other sealed batteries).

Cost of components - you can buy everything you need off the shelf, but you have to have a long term outlook with regards to recovering costs! A motor controller will cost over a thousands pounds, you might pick up a s/h forklift drive motor for fifty quid if not another thousand for new, a suitable battery charger will cost another thousand, battery charge modules possibly five hundred, batteries will be around a thousand, plus all the misc cabling, high V DC/low V DC convertor, electric vac pump for brakes, instrumentation etc. I'd like to be proved wrong that it could be done on the cheap but I can't see it. Sure you could save on the controller and use forklift contactors to change speeds, and you could use a variac for a charger and rectify it's output but you still need matched batteries and deep cycle high capacity batteries aren't plentifull secondhand unless they're completely done!

Having said that, I have taken a trip to see a company in the states called EV parts (well, they were Wilde EVolutions when I met them) who have a great 88" series II electric amongst other EVs. Really nicely done, and they have in the past done what you suggest by adding a genny, in their case I think it was a Fisher APU, but don't think that was long term, just strapped in the bed of the LR. Dunsfold have a series III electric though when I was last there they were about to kill it by fitting ten quid SLI batteries to it! Not sure if they actually did though....

Regards

William MacLeod

Reply to
willie

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