sorn

DVLA are b__stards on this. They denied recieving four(4) separate pices of paper, all detailing the change of ownershiop of a car I bought. Then they tried to do me for no tax!!! Cue mailstorm over three months, culminating in the whole thing 'going away', when the origonal owner, me, and a friend who's a solicitor got together and wrote a 'legalese' complaint/threat . Best thing to do is to get all the info you can, approximate dates for dposting, and mailing it to them explaining what happened(mail them an obvious copy), andf they should sort it out. They're not intentionally evil, it just seems that way :0)

`Mark

Did the DVLA send you any notification that they had received your orginal comminication, I guess not. When I told DVLA about the transfer of ownership of my last car to the insurance company late last year I got a letter from 'em telling me that I was no longer recorded keeper and that I had no further legal resposibilty for that vehicle and to keep the letter...

How long has the SORN being inforce? Longer than 2003 I think, so he should be sending that bit in each year.

Oh dear can't you remember anything about him/her. I have a sneaky feeling that the DVLA are bit like HMC&E if there is doubt you carry the can unless you have pretty good evidence otherwise. I guess you used ordinary letter post for the V5 to DVLA rather than recorded delivery as well so you have no "proof of posting".

Another useful little "practice" I've learnt, to let them (or anyone else) know you mean business, is to put a CC at the bottom of the letter to a solicitor - real or imaginary:

copy to: Lambert, Faulkes and Twatting

something like that!

I've just been through the triennial medical renewal on my driving licence, and, while it's all come through, it's taken a while to sort out, even allowing for Christmas delays. It always does.

But DVLA doesn't cope well with anything out of the ordinary -- the form might ask for dates of appointments "within the last six months", the hospital has re-timed an appointment, and letters start to shuttle back and forth.

It's not just DVLA -- some of the offices I dealt with as a farmer were the same -- DEFRA have even published lists of non-working email addresses to be used to contact them.

Anyway, recorded delivery doesn't prove what was in the letter. Keep copies of everything.

What sort of court summons have you had?.

I'd have thought that since it has been 18 months since you sold it you should by now have recieved at least one tax renewal notice, or notice of a fine for not sorning it.

Theyve attempted to fine me for not sorning things (after they messed up and kept returning my sorn forms). I bought a car, and got the sorn fine letter about 4 months later - so they move fairly quicly and you should not have heard absolutely nothing for 18 months.

for my run-in i wrote them a letter back with all the evidence i had (dated letters from them in my case), and they wrote me a 'we have decided not to pursue your fine' letter a few weeks later.

You should always get proof of posting for any dealing you have with the DVLA. That is enough to show them that you have posted the required info off to them (even though the proof of posting doesnt say anything about the ltter contents)

For the extra 65p or so, I'd always suggest sending all such notifications via Recorded Delivery.

So far as your current situation, simply write to the Court, deny the offence, give the reasons, ask for a trial. Send this by Recorded Delivery, if you like, Counter Claim for the cost of the additional

65p postage (legit costs, really). You'll probably see the case dropped and you'll then be invited to attend to see through your Counter Claim...

Likewise here. I initially thought what a waste of paper and resources, I get them every time I SORN as well. Now I realise how useful it actually is, it appears that it is to protect you from them.

When I got rid of my last car I never filled in any paperwork and I had no idea who the guy was who took it off my hands,

Fortunately I discovered on the RAC site that the registration is still current so I suppose someone must have registered a change owner

Maybe it's still registered to you.

In which case, if it's used in the commission of a crime, or nabbed on a tax disc/insurance camera then you'll be liable for the fines/points/prison :-(

Regards

Steve G

Larry wrote:

Unlikely I'd have thought...

This is not necessarily the case at all. There are now statutory obligations to notify the change of keeper (note, 'keeper', the registration document makes no mention of 'owner'), however a common denfence is "I sent it off then forgot about it. Must have got lost in the post". This is impossilbe to disprove and therefore a highly reliable defence.

The police aren't stupid, in the case of a vehicle being used in the course of an offence they'll easily tell, when they come around to see you, whether or not you got rid of the vehicle as you claim :-)

On or around Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:28:43 +0000, Mother enlightened us thusly:

and, indeed, is what we'd mostly all do anyway. I don't concern myself with what happens after I post the document off.

surely if it was still registered to him then he'll have been recieving the road tax notices?

Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)

Larry didn't say how long ago he'd sold the vehicle so maybe the RFL isn't due yet. On the whole though, I think you're right.

The point I was trying to make was that it is risky to assume that the buyer will send off the V5 to DVLA and that under current legislation the person named as the registered keeper is responsible for ensuring that it is "properly registered and licensed". The current V5C document states "The Registered Keeper will continue to be liable for the vehicle until DVLA is informed of the keeper change".

Regards

Steve G

MVP wrote:

SG: But not impossible

SG: I never mentioned ownership. The V5 only relates to the registered keeper of a vehicle. Current legislation makes the keeper responsible for notifying DVLA of changes not the owner.

SG: You're right, the Police aren't stupid ... which is why telling them the documentation must have got lost in the post is unlikely to be taken at face value. They may eventually be convinced to believe you but the initial suspicion will fall on you ... it's easier than solving a real cime after all :-)

My son px'd an old Montego for a Mondeo at a garage in Bristol some years ago. The garage bloke said he'd deal with the DVLA side of things and everything was fine until 15 months later when he got a summons through the post. The Montego had been caught in a road tax camera in Yeovil and they were demanding the back tax plus a fine. He contested the charge and was visited by a couple of Bristol's finest (?) to take a statement. They were very sceptical about his story even though I was able to corroborate it (maybe that's why they were doubtful) and it was only when he was able to locate the receipt he got from the garage that they believed him. Fortunately, both DVLA and HM Customs & Excise then took much more interest in the garage concerned than my lad, who got a bollocking from some Inspector but nothing more. The garage owner did time.

Regards

Steve G

The current NZ system is that the buyer is responsible for "Change of Ownership" (equivalent to the V5). However the official line is that you don't part with the vehicle until proof of the change having been made is provided to you. As the change can be done at any Post Office and many WOF (=MOT) testing stations, or eeven online now it's not too arduous.

There's also a disposal form the seller can post off notifying the change, but in typical beauracratic style they seem to file these in the bin without looking at them, and anyway once you've sighted the transfer receipt it's pretty irrelevant.

I did send off a letter to the DVLA some time later when I got the notice to retax it, that I no longer had it and that to the best of my knowlege it was being kept off road somewhere. I never herd from them after that.

Got rid of it in June 02 and got a reminder to tax it the following month, as I got rid of it just before the tax ran out.

I wrote to them saying I did not know who now had it, and I have not had any reminders since so I presume someone else has taxed it since.

Hi Larry, seems quite likely that the new owner did indeed notify DVLA of the change but I'd be a bit more careful in the future. You might not be so lucky next time :-)

Regards

Steve G

Larry wrote:

Hi Dale,

With the DVLA they have an interesting way of working. You have to prove you are innocent otherwise you are guilty.

First of all write to them explaining what has happened and explain that you have the portion of the log book. You then need to detail the rough date that you sent it to them and the date you sold the vehicle. Explain that you are able to get statements from friends and family that you no longer have this vehicle.

Ask them the simple question, "Why has it taken this long to taken action against you?"

Do non of this via telephone, I know to my cost that phone calls can be denied and details not detailed on the computer.

Explain also in the letter that as you know you are innocent that you are willing to appear in court and mount a rigorous defence.

Make sure you send the letter via "Next day guarnteed delivery." It costs a fortune but it is handled seperately from normal post and is almost 100% going to get there, it will cost about £3.50. Recorded delivery is placed in with normal post and about 30% are not signed for and just posted through the letterbox.

If the court date is soon, attend the court and plead "Not guilty." Ask for a trial and explain that you intend to produce witnesses and witness statements that you no longer own this vehicle. Explain that you have discharged your legal duty in informing the DVLA and you cannot be liable for the inefficiency of the Post Office.

DVLA tend to do about 20 cases at once with the majority of people declaring guilty via post. Make sure you attend court (do not plead nto guilty via post) and make yourself known to an usher and that you wish to enter a plea. The magistrate may deal with you there an dthen, if this is the case ask for a postponement as you need to prepare a proper and adequate defence. (Do not take a solicitor with you at this hearing, it makes you look like you are guilty, I know it shouldn't, but it does).

If you are set a trial date and DVLA still insists on a prosection - then get as many witnesses to appear in court and write sworn statements as possible. Present all you evidence in a calm polite manner respecting the bench and using all the proper titles. make sure you question DVLA regarding the following areas:-

"Why has it taken so long to issue a summons and why were you not contacted before this date?"

"Have they monitored how many of the letters addressed to them are lost in the post?"

"Have they taken this up with the Post Office and registered a complaint, ask them to specify dates?"

"Can they produce any evidence that this vehicle has been stopped by the Police or been issued with a Speed Camera fine since the date that you sent the details to DVLA?" Explain that with the new mobile camera technology for reading tax discs that this would be highly unlikely for the vehicle not to be detected on the road.

I expect that the magistrate will find in your favour. Then submit to the court a request for costs:-

Time taken £7 per hour, including gathering evidence - Say £210

Postage and Stationary: £15

Telephone calls £4

Making a total of £229.

I hope you win your case.

Andrew

P.S. I just phoned DVLA as I scrapped a vehicle on the 21st of August last year and haven't received any documentation. Even though I had received nothing from them it seems on the computer I no longer own the vehicle. PHEW.