TD5 90 or TDi300 90..?

OK, I have a 1997 TDi300, which I bought mainly as an off-road play thing, last year. I am planning on fitting winch, roll-bar, ARB lockers (at approx £1500 each from what I can tell..!).

I have recently seen a TD5, already fitted with traction control, winch and roll-bar plus a few other goodies (and its also newer).

Question is, would I be better sticking with my TDi300 and spending the money on that, or buying the TD5...?

I am going round in circles on this one, so in the hope that you guys can reduce my confusion I thought I'd ask..;-))

cheers

simon

Reply to
Simon Coupland
Loading thread data ...

Twas Tue, 4 May 2004 18:38:24 +0100 when "Simon Coupland" put finger to keyboard producing:

I'd take the 300tdi as it's proven tougher. IMHO

Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)

Reply to
Mr.Nice.

Mr.Nice. wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

I'm advised they are also more popular (and thus keep their value) because they are easier for your non-dealership garage to work on, i.e. no damned computers!

Derry

Reply to
Derry Argue
300 Tdi simpler, the more gizmo's the more it will rip you off especially off-road. Once had a Renault Savannah with auto box, to check oil level in box required computer and £75 !! I imagine the same will apply to the computers in the modern cars. Look at Africa and remote area's, what do they go for ? Yeah Yeah I know, Jap crap, but reliable.

Reply to
Hirsty's

I hear a lot of dissenting voices re: the electronics, but in general electronics last longer than mechanical bits, less moving parts - dont they..?

I'd be interested to hear from folks who have TD5s to see what it's like living with one.

Anyone out there..?

cheers

simon

Reply to
Simon Coupland

Both my local non-dealership garages (Peak District) have the equipment to service and fix TD5s, I dont think its a problem for them. Posibly easier as the computer provides the diagnosis and tuning info.

Re: the TDi, they seem fragile when it comes to timing belts, and loss of a belt can lead to catastrophic failure of the engine (not that it's happened to mine, but it does cross my mind every now and again..!).

cheers

simon

Reply to
Simon Coupland

Simon Hi,

I do not live with a TD5 or a 300Tdi. But I do live with two 200Tdi engines (on two ex CT Discos)

If you want to make a quick and well supported decision call your dealer and ask for the price of one diesel injector for the 300Tdi and one for the TD5.

The 300 Tdi needs four while the TD5 needs 5 (and they are far more expensive but do as your dealer to believe how much the difference is)

A TD5 will give you worst fuel economy (meaning that it consumes more fuel) and is pricier to tweak when you will decide to extract more power from it. It is also reported that they last for less mileage than the 200 or 300Tdi engines.

Their pluss side is that they will be having spare parts for a bit more time (probably), are much smoother and quiter in operation and are developing more power on stock factory settings.

As for the locking diffs why are you oriented on ARB diffs only? There are far more sturdy alternatives when it comes to manually selectable

100% locking diffs. And they are made in the UK and have readily available spares parts (no need to buy from Australia or the States or wait for spares to come from there)
Reply to
Pantelis Giamarellos

Pantelis,

Thanks for your input, you make a good point.

How often do injectors need to be changed, I've not changed any on my TDi300 yet - should I be doing..?

Re: ARB locking diffs, what other UK products are you suggesting..?

cheers

simon

Reply to
Simon Coupland

equipment to

Don't forget the oil pump gear dropping off the TD5 LOL.

If you have no fear of electronics and can live with a poor low rev torque output, then the TD5 machine is a better and more accomplished performer.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Most diesel engines will do a huge mileage, over 150,000 miles typically, without any injector failing or needing maintainance. That is no consolation to the unlucky person who has one fail I suppose. They will soon be available for TD5 at much less cost I would think, as more become available as reconditioned units. If not, then LR have really shot themselves in the foot. Especially as the TD5 is to be phased out over the next 18 months.

If you feel the need for more power then you have the wrong vehicle. Any TDi 200 or later has more than adequate power for the type of vehicle and to tow 4 tons with ease.

Reported or romoured? I have seen no evidence for this at all. All three engines have had a few problems so none are perfect, but what engine is? No, don't answer that!

Huw

Reply to
Huw

"Simon Coupland"

If you have to ask the question, certainly not!

All engine manufacturers do have a scheduled maintenance check on injectors, usually every 1200 to 1500 hours of use. This is mainly so that absolutely shagged injectors do not billow smoke all over the place and also so as to provide a profit opportunity for the dealer. I took a LR to a reputable main dealer whose favourite cash generator was to replace a glow plug at every visit. In fact, since choosing to take my custom elsewhere, I have only needed to replace one complete set once in fifteen years. Injectors used with properly changed fuel filters will last one heck of a long time. A truly amazingly long time considering the work they do and the precision that is needed for them to work efficiently. 100,000 miles is the MINIMUM one should expect of them.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Bear in mind that a Td5 injector contains what is in effect a mini injector pump as well as an injector. If you ring the dealer, get a price on a pump as well, I think the later EGR spec Tdi pumps are around £2000 +VAT in the UK.

The main problem is that the Td5 is 5 years old, but the majority of parts are only available from LR dealers. The aftermarket suppliers don't seem to have 'caught up' with the engine, in much the same way as the LR buyers haven't.

My own personal experience of the Td5 is that the electronics are very very good, and generally don't fail unless you do something daft, like flood the ECU in water.

I have had a Td5 failure (number 2 big end bearing) which obviously wasn't anything to do with the electronics, it's a purely mechanical problem which could happen to a Tdi.

The Td5 uses a chain-driven camshaft, no belt driven timing or pushrods as on the Tdi, so it should be more reliable, if a little noisier.

The independent LR specialists are starting to bring in Rovacom or Autologic diagnostic systems for all the LR vehicles, which means you haven't got to go to the dealer for any ECU interrogation or programming. The Rovacom Lite system is around £450 for the Defender Td5 and is a laptop-based diagnostic unit.

The advantage of having diagnostics is that you can see to a greater extent what's wrong - for example if you've lost a sensor or if an injector isn't firing correctly - without replacing components to no avail. If you have a misfire on a Td5 the diagnostics will tell you which cylinder is out of balance - so you know where to concentrate your efforts.

Of course it can't help with mechanical failures, but to be honest nothing really can, except good maintenance. It's perfectly possible to maintain a Td5 at home, there's nothing to stop you changing the oil and filters on the engine yourself :o) You only really need the diagnostics if you've got a problem - I think I was unlucky with mine :o(

I agree that there's not the knowledge around about the Td5, it's simply seen as a nightmare with its ECUs and sensors, and its seems that no-one really wants to get to know it, if you see what I mean.

I would be interested to hear about the number and type of failures of the Td5 engine compared to the number built - it's been in production for over 5 years now in the Defender and Disco. The main problems I've heard of are shifting head, oil ingress into harness, cracked fuel rails in the head and oil pump bolt loosening, however I don't know in what numbers they are occuring.

The decision basically is down to you, and you'll get many more people saying the Tdi is better, even without personal experience of the Td5. I've not got experience of the Tdi, and I'm trying not to comment on it, just putting the Td5's side forward a bit! :o)

Martin

Reply to
Martin Lewis

Martin and Huw Hi,

It is excellent news to see at least two people getting the TD5's side after having a personal experience living with them.

I totally agree that all engines have their problems and that none is perfect.

I also agree that a mechanical failure is something that has to be expected since automobile specs engines do not have the build quality, tolerances and components quality control of air or military engines.

One thing that may make the 200Tdi engine (remember this is what I drive) potentialy better than the later type 300Tdi (the electronicaly controlled ones) or the TD5 is the complete lack of electronics. By doing away with them you just limit a probably failure factor.

I am sure that TD5 components will slowly start to appear on aftermarket spare parts suppliers, very much the same as with the Tdi engines. You can nowdays shop around for the Tdi parts that you may need and find them at very competitive prices or even directly from the original equipment manufacturer.

I am not trying to persuade anyone on what type or version of engine is the best. I have just expressed my opinion and reasoning behind why I opted into living with two 200Tdi engine vehicles.

As for asking for more power from a 200Tdi this has to do with also driving a relatively fast car for long distance tarmac driving. Power is never enough after all.

-------

As for Simon's request for more information on the UK designed and built manualy locking diffs please have a look here

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I can not say that I am not connected with them since we have agreed that I will be their second distributor for the area of Greece but I can only tell you that their kit is used by the UK MoD and that means that it has passed some serious testing. They are a bit slow in replying to private enquiries but I would suggest you take a look at their products. They have just started producing a new version of their locking diff which is electricaly selectable and promises to be even better.

If you contact them I would be obliged if you were to mention my name so that they know that I try to present their company and products even outside of Greece.

Take care Pantelis Giamarellos LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE

Reply to
Pantelis Giamarellos

Craddocks in the UK have the parts on their web site, so it's encouraging to see the TD5 being supported outside of the dealer network.

Hmm, as I plan on doing reasonable amount of off-roading, getting wet is inevitable. Perhaps the electronics will be an issue. What chance of waterproofing them (arent they sealed to start with..?!!)

Thanks for the input. Have you any experience of the ABS - Traction control, this was one of the reasons I was looking at buying the TD5.?

cheers

simon

Reply to
Simon Coupland

Pantelis,

Thanks for the info and I will mention your name if I contact them.

cheers

simon

-- Simon Coupland Peak District, UK

Reply to
Simon Coupland

I have just purchased one of the six Blenheim Silver TD5 90 CSW's that were prepared by Land Rover Special Vehicles for the 2001 Defender Challenge event in Spain. One of the mods they carried out on these vehicles was to relocate the ECU out of the seatbox and onto the top of the interior bulkhead. However, they left the fusebox in the seatbox!

Steve. Suffolk. remove 'knujon' to e-mail

Reply to
AN6530

Twas Tue, 4 May 2004 22:10:00 +0100 when "Huw" put finger to keyboard producing:

Mine have done 225k and need changing, I think they ar responsible for the low power and smoke.

Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)

Reply to
Mr.Nice.

I really wish people would stop slamming the td5. Ok its got some electrics - BUT it still has a lot less sensors and other electrical gubbins than most modern diesels. If you compare the td5 to a modern TD from a jap offroader you`ll be right in thinking the TD5 is a bit of an old archiaic design - because it is! Also, how many of the poeple slagging td5`s off for their electrical gubbins own a V8 petrol landie? I personally know of 2, pot calling kettle black????? how dare they moan about electrical stuff on a diesel when they have a petrol motor with EFI, 8 plugs, condensors, dizzy etc etc. And yes they can be waterproofed effectively. Just like a V8 can - only easier cos there are fewer electrics to protect! I own a 300tdi and yes i love it. Would i change to a td5 given the opportunity - probably if funds allowed. People moaned when they brought in the tdi saying it went against the landrover values of simplicity (eg the old 2.5nad and 2.5td) but a decade on it is now widely accepted as the best engine landrover have ever made. Who knows, in another decade we might all be retrofitting td5`s and binning the tdi......

Nick C

Reply to
Nick C

On or around 5 May 2004 02:25:24 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (Nick C) enlightened us thusly:

[snip rantette]

my objection is not related to waterproofing etc., and as a V8 owner you're right in saying that would be hypocritical, but to the fact that it's increasingly impossible for me as an ordinary mechanic to work on the damned things.

from choice (not only cost-related) I do most of my own servicing and major repairs. On the modern engines (and petrol ones, too) the increasing amount of electronic control means that I'd have to invest something like a grand in diagnostic stuff to stand a hope of successfully working on it. And that's before we come to sealed ECUs which can't be repaired, etc.

I think the TD5 is a fine piece of work - as you rightly say, it's less complex than many and yet manages to meet the same emissions controls etc., and thus is a good bit of work. The early ones were, by all accounts, inappropriately tuned, lacking low-speed torque, and this has led to a mistrust, I think. Later ones are supposed to be better - I say "supposed" as I've never driven one - I have, however experienced both as a passenger, and the newer one was commendably fast.

However, you have to take note of the fact that the army AFAIK still spec the 300 TDi, mainly I think because they're more concerned with in-field servicing. In the middle of Africa, say, you're not going to find a dealer equipped with test-book...

and FWIW, the only electronic thing I can't if necessary bypass on my V8 is the ignition amp module, and it's easy enough to carry a spare module, and for completeness, a spare sensor plate to go in the distributor.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

"Mr.Nice." wrote

Possibly.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

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