traction control vs diff lockers or none of those

Hi, LR fans !

I'm a total newbee in your group, but as I'm getting a Defender 90 end of april, ordered without ETC, I begin to wonder if traction control would be a valid substitute for locker(s) , as it is still possible to order an ABS / TC

Much of what I've read so far is very contradictionary and leaves me with these questions :

- no ETC, no lockers (btw : why is it not possible to order lockers with LR, factory mounted ? )

-rear lockers or front and rear?

-only ETC - cheaper, factory warranty, interesting in some situations

- but capable in terrain ???

-reliability of electronics, wear of brakes

-can you switch ETC ( and ABS ) off ?

-rely on central lock only and embark a winch ?

My dealer insists on a quick decision if I want to order that ETC - can anybody help me out of this dilemma ? Many thanks in advance ! Heinz

Reply to
heinz
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In message , heinz writes

ETC will be adequate for most situations. I had a 90 with axle lockers front and rear. The advantage of lockers IMHO lies in the fact that at all times all wheels are attempting to produce drive whereas ETC works by stopping the wheel that is slipping. Front lockers have to be used with caution. Fine on the flat in mud, but very little gained on climbing when most weight is on the rear wheels. Also front lockers have a major effect on your ability to steer - you cannot turn the wheel on dry roads. This can also be quite a disadvantage, unnerving and downright dangerous when attempting a climb. Personally I'm not really sure which I would go for if I was buying a new 90 - probably stick with the factory fit to protect the warranty.

A winch is a different matter altogether. It's purpose is to recover you

*after* you have got stuck. Lockers and ETC are there to help you to avoid such a situation.
Reply to
hugh

Unless you intend to travel over 'very' severe terrain ETC will be a good solution in most situations. Your warranty will be intact and ETC combined with a central diff-lock is very effective. You will also find that ETC is much better than lockers in ice and snow where full lockers are a liability.

The reason LR don't offer mechanical lockers is because they require more user knowledge to avoid mis-use and they feed large shock-loadings to the drive-line.

Reply to
Exit

Hugh and Exit , thanks a lot for your rapid reply !

I have ordered ETC now , but I'm still worried about possible ETC disadvantages , like braking on gravel, loss of momentum in climbs , torque being wasted braking, rapid wear of brakes etc - problems reported in many postings .

Should I really worry ? - as on the bright side I've ( so I hope , at least ! ) got a fully warrantied, fairly capable , not-axle-damaging and cheaper system (ABS/ETC is 1635 euro , fitted, Vat in - rear lockers would have cost

2200 ) Could somebody in the know tell me about the ETC problems - or positive experiences - thanks in advance ! Heinz
Reply to
heinz

Exit , thanks ! ( see above , to Hugh )

btw : Julian ? Sigs ??? ( I said I was a newbie )

Reply to
heinz

In message , heinz writes

Were they gold plated??

Mine were about 1000 euros each fitted.

Reply to
hugh

I've never had any of those problems when I've used ETC but I've only tried it on a 90 with a central diff lock, not a la Discovery without. People moan about traction control wasting torque but in reality with a LR in low-box you have such an excess of it you will never notice. As for brake wear, the amount of wear caused by gentle ETC application at low off-road speeds is nothing compared to a couple rapid stops from 80mph so don't worry.

Reply to
Exit

On or around 11 Feb 2004 12:01:55 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@skynet.be (heinz) enlightened us thusly:

I wouldn't think so. it doesn't as such "waste" torque, anyway, by stopping the spinning wheel(s) it actually stops you wasting torque, which otherwise is making that wheel spin.

and as to the gravel thing, ABS (which is what you've got if you've got ETC)

*is* worse on loose dry gravel and fresh uncompacted snow, but that's 'cos a locked wheel on such surfaces pushes a big lump of stuff in front of it. ABS id better under far more conditions than it's worse, IYSWIM.

as to brake wear - If you use it in such conditions as the ETC is working hard all the time, it'd be relevant, otherwise I doubt it makes much difference.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

Austin , many thanks ! ( and to Hugh, Exit, and GuyLux, in a direct mail , as well : I feel a little less "newbiesque" now ! ) - so my choice wasn't entirely wrong then ? Lockers, Hugh , even non-gold-plated ones , seem to be extremely expensive here in Belgium - one more good reason to cross the channel wait until I got that Defender ! But is that airtight diff ( ARB ) not too vulnerable ?

I'd need further advice on running in : how do you rev that TD5 ? I never drove a Diesel , and was amazed how hard it is to get acceleration on the test drive - the mechanic told me things would improve after at least 20 000 km , what are your views , how to treat a motor like that, special precautions, max rev , often vary revs , lubrification , motor getting hot ??? I don't want to mess up an apparently fine engine ! ( btw : is it weak on low rev torque , as some say ? )

Opinions experiences advice very welcome : end of april nears !

Thanks, and take care , all of you ! Heinz

Reply to
heinz

On or around 13 Feb 2004 11:49:49 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@skynet.be (heinz) enlightened us thusly:

generally, you should not rev to more than about 70% of maximum for the first 500 miles or so. Neither should you let the motor labour in a high gear at low revs. try to keep the revs in the middle of the range, and don't do too much at full throttle.

after the first hundred miles or so it's regarded as good practice to apply a bit of welly occasionally, without being excessive about it.

you'll probably find that the engine isn't happy to rev to max revs for the first few thousand miles, until it loosens up a bit.

they vary, apparently. The early versions of the TD5 were noted for this, so it depends what you test-drove. The later ones have been remapped in the electronics to give better low-range torque.

if you've not driven a diesel before, especially a turbo, you need to appreciate that it's not like a petrol. The overall rev range is smaller, and generally diesels perform best at low-medium revs. In the case of a turbo, the low-rev response is not so good as the medium -rev response once the turbo is doing it's stuff.

in the case of our TDi, for example, it starts to pull well at about 1500, pulls very well from about 2000 up to about 3500, and then you may as well change up, although it will in fact rev to about 4500, you don't gain anything and it's better to go up a gear and drop back to about 2500 where there's more torque. Contrast this with the V6 Ford I have, non-turbo petrol which doesn't really take off 'till about 3000 and pulls up to about

6000.

I don't think the TD5 is all that different - it's smoother, being

5-cylinder, but the characteristics are pretty similar, I think. It's more powerful overall, but still to get the best performance you need to be in the mid-range revs, especially with a new one.

The TD5 has electronic engine management and thus can be modified by being "chipped". This, if LR find out, will invalidate your warranty. However, you can get it "turned up" to give more power/torque - with the usual proviso that by extracting more power from an engine you reduce its life - you can get 45 BHP from a 125cc engine, but not for long - it's regarded as normal to rebuild it every other race...

Reply to
Austin Shackles

How about idling ? Not being a Diesel driver, I stop my petrol motor each time of course , is it better for a Diesel to be left idling during shortish stops , or even for longer periods ? ( overheat ? ) Also ,is it advised to let idle a cold motor before driving off ?

What happens if all things electronic fail ? ( a read about "limp home capacity " ) How far /long can you do that ? Also : ETC can be switched off , could you do that for ABS as well ?

So, Austin, MANY thanks for your helpful opinions , but you see : my questions keep coming - is it better to start a new thread for those running in & electronics ponderings ? I greatly appreciate any answers ! ( btw : we ordered our Def90 in oct. 03 , today , the dealer told us that Caledonian Blue couldn't be shipped end of april and that LR spoke of an "undetermined time " for delivery - is that normal ? - makes me think of switching to Merc G- Wagen or even Patrol or Cruiser ... would hate to have to do that , although , the G with all his diff locks ...)

Heinz

Reply to
heinz

On or around 14 Feb 2004 11:21:53 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@skynet.be (heinz) enlightened us thusly:

diesels will mostly idle all day on about a teacupful of juice, so there's no need to shut it off for a stop of a couple of minutes, say. Provided it's somewhere secure, of course, and I believe there are some rules about leaving things running unattended.

for longer periods, you may as well stop it.

in the case of a turbo, it's wise to leave it idle for a few seconds before turning off, this gives the turbo a chance to slow down - once you stop the engine, you don't have oil pressure in the turbo bearings. in particular you don't want to rev the engine before stopping it.

starting the motor and letting it idle for a few seconds (up to about 30 I guess) is quite good especially in cold weather. Gives it a chance to get oil circulating all round the engine. Also good practice not to rev or load the engine hard when it's cold.

These apply to all engines, really.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

I'd prefer you didn't do this outside my house, however...

To generalise, I do find it a little tedious walking round in great clouds of diesel smoke because some bus / lorry drivers are reluctant to turn their engines off even when they're waiting for long periods. Coach drivers seem to be the worst culprits, presumably to run the air conditioning.

David

Reply to
David French

On or around Sat, 14 Feb 2004 23:16:01 -0000, "David French" enlightened us thusly:

I'd not leave it running for more than a minute or two, meself. But I would (and do) leave it idling if I'm jumping out to post a letter or other similar style activity.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

In message , heinz writes

There's only one way to drive a diesel - foot to the floor all the time.

Reply to
hugh

but these questions do worry me : how about all that electonic stuff , can you switch off - or fail! safely ? And how about colour ( Caled. Blue or if needs must Monte Carlo ) availability and lead times ? ( I'm seriously thinking G now ) Thanks for all the precious information !

- hope to read you soon . Heinz

Reply to
heinz

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