Looks like the Wayfinder project has gone public. You can now register an account on the site and view the lists of rights of way that are held on there without being a member of GLASS or CRAG.
Nice. now how long is this sign up confirmation gonna take? :)
Heh, "The only official wayfinder site", you can tell there was some argy bargy about it going public can't you ;-)
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:21:18 -0000, "Nigel" scribbled the following nonsense:
note that way-finder.co.uk is not registered with the Data Controller for the Data Protection Act, so they are breaking the law by holding your data. I have done some digging behind this as there is a potted history behind it, and they now hold my details on record with no DPA agreement in place, so a legal process has begun.....
GLASS do not support this version, their version can be found at wayfinderproject.co.uk Please support the GLASS version, but then I would say that ;-)
All very messy by the sound of it. Is there a SHORT history behind the apparent diverging of the ways?
Dougal uttered summat worrerz funny about:
The way I read it is some one who did the coding whilst part of glass threw there teddy so glass threw theres back at them, both went seperate ways claiming the supposed rights to the Wayfinder concept, each have a good case, then it got mucky as CRAG began to get access to what I beleive is now the free one.... a number of CRAG peeps appear on the face of it to be ex-disgruntled Glass members who set up crag after a handbag session.
Personally it all got rather boring to read as they slapped each other about on 'tinternet , sad as it is both groups seem to do good work if only they would get on with it and spend less time trying to self destruct each other and concentrate on greenlane issues then we'd all be the better off for it. For now my money stays in my wallet until someone starts the popular peoples front of green grass upon crag.
Lee D
Forgive the ignorance, but whats with the two versions? Both sites look the same, even appear to have the same copyright owner. Are both viewable now without being a member of GLASS? I got my confirmation email just now for the first one - wouldnt let me put nothing in the membership number field, but validated me okay with number 0000001!
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:45:34 +0000, Dougal scribbled the following nonsense:
data was held on a server, GLASS Wayfinder Management Team (WMT) were given notice to move the database. Shortly after, the FTP access was blocked before it could be removed. Full control was handed to a person who had no FTP access to the system by the host, who set the system up on the same server and blocked all WMT access.
The person who hosts the server space is very pro crag, and very anti glass, and has a commercial interest in developing wayfinder further to be marketable product for sale to the public.
Needless to say there has been much ranting and raving and bad feeling. The GLASS version is being completely rewritten to use a more uptodate language (not PERL) and is expected to launch with a new identity sometime in 2007.
I had a read up on this the other night - GLASS appear to have behaved rather high-handedly towards the bloke. See the GLASS web site, where they manage to spectacularly shoot themselves in the foot with their explanation of events.
Richard
As I read it, the bloke wrote the software (so it's his), and then for some reason, seemingly related to what the software can, or can't, do, GLASS spat the dummy and sidelined the bloke. Not unsurprisingly, the bloke left GLASS and took his software with him. GLASS appear to be now claiming it is theirs! Unless GLASS can show they devloped at least part of the software they have no claim over it, and then if they did then they only have a claim over the bits they did. GLASS's "explanation" on their site doesn't do their cause much good I'm affraid, being somewhat arrogant, and, as I read it, admitting that their claim on the software is pulerly based on the fact that the set up a sub-committee to "look after" it's use.
Whatever the in's and out's of the actual software ownership, I've decided against a coprorate (sound posh eh?) membership as I'm not keen on the attitude show by them towards a (ex)member.
Richard
(ex full-time, now part-time softawre developer)
Perhaps, although I don't think that's a good reason to avoid joining them, after all the reason you join an organisation is to try and get some kind of representation, not because you agree wholeheartedly with each and every thing they do. It's a case of deciding what's more important, getting some kind of representation or making no impact at all on an irrelevant event that has nothing to do with you. Personally I think it's more important to at least get another member on the books, you can always join both GLASS and CRAG after all.
I've mentioned before on this group about other times I've seen GLASS in public and not be over enthused by the "image" given. My motivation for joing GLASS would be to add support to a body that represents "our" interests. Having seen their camp site ("base" may be a better description) at The Star Caravan Park at least once I can say I would not be overwhelmed by the desire to joint them for the weekend. Ok, so some think that camo nets strung up around the place looks good - each unto their own and all that, but for a body that tries to represent the responsible face of off-roading I'm less than convinced that doing that is a good thing. I know from land owners round here (both customers and friends), who have lanes on their land, that fully-machoed vehicles bristling with aerials also give off a very negative image. That might not be popular in these groups, but it is certainly ture amongst other countryside users who "we" have to try to get along with. Equally, whether it's still there or not I don't know, there was an exchange of letters on their site between GLASS and The Ramblers, which was, sadly, rather pathetic (I mean that in the sense that some third part reading it without knowing the politics would see it as being a bit sad, not nastily - something like
500 members vs. 60,000 at the time). The spat over Wayfinder also sends out the wrong signals to (notionaly) impartial third parties, and to me, as to just what GLASS is all about - and plastering it all over the opening page of the site is a seriously bad PR gaffe, as I see it. Doubtlessly, there will be Ramblers and others using the spat to discredit GLASS via Chinese whispers - "They can't even sort that out, what hope have we the 's getting on with them?". If they are trully to represent "us", then they need to take a leaf out of the Ramblers book and get "professional". Sadly, like going to see the bank manager, so much depends on image- just compare GLASS's opening page to LARA's to see what I mean. Obviously it's purely personal thing, but that's how I feel. We need a tame MP or two, and we won't get one unless our image is right. In the meantime, I'll just keep telling land owners that the majority just enjoy the countryside when laning, and use off-road sites and trials to "play" - it might not be strictly true, and it's not going to get questions asked in Parliament, but one has to try.....
Richard
On or around Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:37:28 +0000, Simon Isaacs enlightened us thusly:
while that is entirely valid, it does LOOK to me that GLASS are infringing copyright by operating their one [assuming this to be factual and true:
It seems a pity that, with all the pressures on RoW access and permissions that there's so much dissent among the people who should all be working together to state our case. And that includes GLASS, CRAG, Ian Boddison, the TRF and doubtless others.
The anti brigade must be delighted. And I may as well say here that I am now a GLASS member and I support, for the most part, what GLASS is doing. I'd also like to say that this is not an attack on Simon, who I know, like and respect - it's just my comments about the Wayfinder thing, based on what I've just been looking at on the web.
Unfortunately people who invest their time into things are likely to get territorial over the fruits of their efforts, so us riff-raff will just have to put up with it and just be glad that they did at least put the effort in at all, as we'd be much worse off if they didn't have territory to dispute. My own personal recommendation would be to support them all, and join up to all those that represent you meaningfully. If I can't invest my time like they can, then I can spare some of my moolah at least. They'll also get a gentle shove too, but it would be a bad thing if GLASS/CRAG etc just chucked it all in.
It's a case of looking past the squabbles at the main goal, it's easier for us to do that than it is for them as it's their own personal time and effort that they're fighting over, so it's up to those of us with less invested to try and point out to them that they're at risk of squandering their own effort and to gently request, en masse, that they kindly carry on giving up their own time to help us out.
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:36:04 +0000, beamendsltd scribbled the following nonsense:
a substantial part of the current code has been written by people other than the original developer. There are also minutes of meetings where the developer has been recorded as saying that he has given the software to GLASS to use as they wish. The developer is a strange guy, proposed the comittee to run Wayfinder, and then refused to acknowledge it.....
Needless to say, a rewrite is underway which will solve the problem once and for all.
Anyone who emails his girlfriend whilst they are both in the same bed playing with their Laptops is not to be trusted in my book.
Anyway - my approach to laning is this: I will continue to drive Rights of Way (NOT offroading btw) where legal and responsible. I will not be intimidated by other legitimate users of these roads when they express displeasure either openly ro tacitly. I will continue to personally lobby my local MP through correspondance and visiting his surgeries. I will report damage to lanes where it has occurred. (see below) I don't support lane repair though.
I think lan erepair suggests an acknowledgement of responsibility and guilt. You don't see communters repairing the M25 do you, and you don't see ramblers repairing the path up Millbeck in Great Langdale. The appropriate agencies have this responsibility. Notably though, often the damage I report to my local Highways authority is caused in the main by agricultural vehicles and poor road maintenance.
The last two discussions to my local highways officers involved road SU
4487-4a at the western end where an electricity company Land Rover had got stuck and slide off the road, resting against a fence. An agricultural worker recovered the vehicle using a Maintou which had caused significant damage to the road surface through repeated shunting. The Manitou driver said to me "it's c**nts like you who tear up these lanes", and he said if I got stuck he wouldn't recover me too. He watched as I laid waffles to bridge the damage in order to prevent slipping off the track, then he drove off. I naturally reported the incident the the HA ROW officer. The other is SU 2880-7a, where water run-off is causing a V gulley in the road at the southern end, this has been getting progressively worse over the last 3 years - some small preventative maintenance will prevent further gulleying.In both these examples the root cause of damage to the road was not a result of driving them recreationally. I don't see this as a call to arms to repair the lanes, or (within reason) to not drive the lane at all. I will neither volunteer, or be held responsible for repair where I have exercised reasonable caution and a high level of care when driving these roads.
With rights come responsibilities. I believe in the firm assertion of these rights in the context of responsibility to others whilst exercising them. I don't believe that GLASS represents my view, hence I let my membership lapse.
No, but unfortunately if the repairs aren't done then they're held up as an example as to how much damage 4x4 users are doing. If a lane gets downgraded to a bridleway and the damage continues to happen because it wasn't 4x4 users doing the damage in the first place, then getting it re-upgraded to a byway just isn't going to happen. It's an image problem, shouldn't be relevant but given how pathetic most adults are it's neccessary.
Basically it's no good saying "this isn't the way it's supposed to be", unfortunately this is the way that it is and we need to try to make sure that it doesn't get any worse. We know that horse riders and walkers don't contribute, and we know that most damage is done by farming (or horse riders around my house), and we know that councils don't like repairing lanes and so take the cheapest option. You can say these things as much as you want, but we have to do our best to demonstrate that the lies from the antis are wrong.
Sadly it's quite hard sometimes, my local RoW group have had comments like "don't make it too easy" from convoys of 4x4 users driving through their repair teams. It shouldn't be like that either, but unfortunately there it is. Go to the "mud club" website and you'll find lots of people who swap the locations of "mud runs", lanes in poor repair that they then go and wreck. Lots of other web sites like that.
I've helped repair lanes I've never driven in an effort to improve the overall situation. I know that agricultural use is a PITA, the repairs I helped with on the Ridgeway were being organised by a local pig farmer who was doing pennance for making a mess elsewhere and letting 4x4 users take the blame.
Best thing to do IMHO is to report the damage as you already do, but with volunteer groups helping to put it right, in theory more lanes can get the repairs they need.
Try telling that to 99% of the population.
That's completely untrue. I frequent the Mud-Club forums and have never seen such posts. In the main they are simply 4x4 owners swapping maintenance and modification tips. The vast majority of discussion on driving is with rgard to off-road sites. It's grossly unfair to suggest otherwise.
On or around 22 Nov 2006 04:13:48 -0800, "ChavScum" enlightened us thusly:
Often it is indeed the irresponsible off-roaders who at least contribute to the damage, if not cause it.
Damage due to agricultural use is liable to be limited to distinct points.
Frankly, if you expect the local authorities to repair BOATs you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Take the example I mentioned round here, the so-called Bryn Glas trail. The damage to that is such that it'd take a gang of workers several weeks of full days to put it right, and would require hundreds of tons of material, a digger, sundry drain pipes and the like. The cost would run into thousands of pounds and there's no way the council are going to spend that much on something which is only used occasionally for recreational purposes, when instead they can send a bloke to examine it, decide that it's unsafe to drive and put a TRO on it. The damage to this lane was caused *entirely* by over use (mainly by a commercial operator but not entirely so) by 4x4s and to some extant off-road bikers.
If you don't believe me about the state of this lane, then I invite anyone to come with me and walk it - of the usual suspects on here I suspect the only one with a vehicle that might drive it (were it not TRO'd) is Ian with his Pinzi.
The way forward is not confrontation but co-operation, and that includes with the council. There are areas where local groups have a good relationship with the council and this seems to benefit everyone.
On or around 22 Nov 2006 04:13:48 -0800, "ChavScum" enlightened us thusly:
The problem is the people who, unlike you, *don't* exercise care. I trust your exercise of care extends to turning back when you judge that the road is in poor condition and you can't drive it safely or without causing undue damage.
But the chap with the manitou was doubtless referring to the sort of gits who don't exercise reasonable care, and I don't doubt he's seen more than enough of them. I get similar answers talking to the locals round here - they're fed up with the high-profile noisy people who take and don't give, upset the livestock, damage the fields, let their dogs run free where there are sheep, and so on. As a result I've not done anything about organising a laning day round here. Now that a certain gentleman has departed for sunnier climes then it might be that in a year or so we can get back to "normal".
However, changing people's minds like that takes time and effort, and the sort of thing that would make a difference is such as lane repair days and so on. Maybe one day we'll sort something out on those lines.
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