When is the US going to get "real" Land Rovers?

|> And why doesn't the US military use the Defender as a basic, and |> cheaper, vehicle for the average troops? | |A question that has been asked by many US servicemen as well. Despite |our troops in the Gulf being known as "The Borrowers" by the US Army, |when it comes to 4x4s the US tries to borrow Defenders on a regular |basis since the Defender seems far better suited to desert warfare than |the Hummer. (This according to some of my friends who are currently "out |there" in the Gulf states>) | |A better solution might be the new Discovery III, which apparently is a |much, much better off-roader than the Defender. I'm wondering, since one |option is to get a Disco III with a 4.4L Jaguar engine, how long it will |be before someone bolts on the supercharger from the Jag XJR/XKR to the |Disco?

Any info on this??

Reply to
R. David Steele
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|> Why can't the US get Defender 90s, 110s and 130s? |>

|> Why can't we have diesel powered Landies? |>

|> And why doesn't the US military use the Defender as a basic, and |> cheaper, vehicle for the average troops? |>

| | |Because they do not meet their minimum crash and rollover standards. |Apparently they are good enough for us in the UK :-( |This will change with the new utility range which is only a year to |eighteen months from launch. Yippee!

Neither does the Hummer. Yet it is sold to the public.

and, btw, US gas prices are now climbing over $2 per gallon, or so my wife recently told me. It may even reach $3 by summer.

Reply to
R. David Steele

Can I come down there and get in on those bargin prices? :)

Reply to
Chris Phillipo

The hummer is sold but it is classified by the authorities as a truck (due to weight mainly) and therefore does not have to comply to passenger car standards.

As for the US military, it does use Land Rovers. IIRC US Marines and some other special forces use them.

Take care Pantelis (not living in the USA, just happens to know the above)

Reply to
Pantelis Giamarellos

Twas Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:02:30 +0100 when "David French" put finger to keyboard producing:

No you don't... ;o)

well, I don't with my vehicle... I was an early adopter of digital photography though.

-- Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.) ___________________________________________________________ "To know the character of a man, give him anonymity" - Mr.Nice.

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110 CSW 2.5(na)D___________________________________________________________

Reply to
Mr.Nice.

On or around Sun, 18 Apr 2004 02:52:21 GMT, R. David Steele enlightened us thusly:

give us a chance, the vehicle's not launched yet.

but in principle, if the engine's the same, it should be possible. It might end up needing rather a lot of expensive bits to make it fit.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

Full review in Top Gear magazine this month.

Brief review at:

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another at:
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another at:
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The online reviews don't mention the interesting idea of the webcam provided that can be mounted on any part of the bodywork that gives a picture on the dash screen. This allows (e.g.) the camera to be attached to the chassis so that you can check the terrain close up for rock scrambling. They do mention the terrain response system that allows a driver to dial in the type of terrain they are driving on and get a pre-set combination of suspension, transmission and hill descent settings for that type of terrain. Hill descent now includes the option to select descent speed.

The online sites also mention that the Discovery III will be available with a 4.0 V6 from the world's best selling SUV "in some markets". So I don't suppose it takes long to guess, Explorer 4.0V6, North America.

Reply to
Steve Firth

Getting your finger over the lens again?

(Idle thought -- has anyone ever done a body conversion on a 90 to look like a Lightweight? I know there is a set of plans available to make a Hummer-style body for the bigger US pick-ups.)

Reply to
David G. Bell

The Marines and others (Rangers?) ordered a small number of Defenders after the first Gulf War, because the Defender turned out much more suitable for the rapid desert raids than the Hummer. However IIRC the Defenders were ordered without engines to be fitted with GMC 6.3L V8 diesels on arrival. I'm not sure how that would affect desert driving, for the worse I would think it's a heavy engine.

Reply to
Steve Firth

With the GBP:USD rate as it is at the moment, petrol in the UK is getting on for $2 per litre ...

Reply to
QrizB

I realise that, but the market for a Defender in the US that is the same size as the smaller pick-ups but costs more than the full-size ones is still thought to be very limited by LR. Maybe they are wrong. The TD6 is also too expensive to fit to Defenders and has already been dropped by Ford as it is a BMW engine and they don't like buying outside. You should however get the new Ford-Peugeot 2.7 V6 diesel jointly developed for the new Discovery which has 200bhp and 300lb-ft of torque.

They can't be that harsh judging by the the numbers of people I see over there driving round in 6.8 litre V10 petrol motors! I think petrol will need to get a lot more expensive than it is now before a real market for diesels in anything but large pick-ups will develop properly, rather than just a niche.

There are no technical reasons why you should not have a big choice of diesels - it's the marketing departments of the motor manufacturers who don't believe the market exists or you would already have them.

Perception is reality I'm afraid. People see LR and think English. Maybe when the POTUS swaps his limo for a Jag your army will get LR's, but I wouldn't hold my breath! :)

Reply to
Exit

|>> R. David Steele wrote: |>>> Why can't the US get Defender 90s, 110s and 130s? |>>

|>> The main problem is that LR and Ford's marketing dept have trouble |>> seeing where they wouls fit in to the US market. They would be |>> smaller than many US pick-ups but would be more expensive to buy. |>> They do not have the comfort and luxury of a typical US pick-up and |>> most of the market demands this. The sheer utility of a Defender and |>> the off-road ability would of course be superior to most pick-ups |>> but perhaps still not create a large enough market to make them |>> viable. LR continually say the no longer sell Defenders in the US |>> because of emmissions and passenger airbag issues - this of course |>> is nonsense as they sell thousands of Discoverys with exactly the |>> same engine and emmissions and fitting a passenger airbag is not |>> beyond the engineering wit of Lode Lane either. On the upside, the |>> US will definitely get the new Defender based on the T5 chassis in a |>> few years, so you'll have to hang on. |>

|> Word was that we were going to get the TD6, not the TD5. And you |> forget that we have a midsize and compact size pickup market. |> All most all the big trucks have smaller brothers. |>

|I realise that, but the market for a Defender in the US that is the same |size as the smaller pick-ups but costs more than the full-size ones is still |thought to be very limited by LR. Maybe they are wrong. The TD6 is also too |expensive to fit to Defenders and has already been dropped by Ford as it is |a BMW engine and they don't like buying outside. You should however get the |new Ford-Peugeot 2.7 V6 diesel jointly developed for the new Discovery which |has 200bhp and 300lb-ft of torque. | |>>>

|>>> Why can't we have diesel powered Landies? |>>>

|>> The two biggest problems are that US diesel is very porr quality |>> with a high sulfur content and modern high-tech turbo-diesels won't |>> swallow it. The other problem is that petrol is cheap and there in |>> very little diesel-car culture in the states yet. It would however |>> be great to drive a 30mpg TD5 in the states so you can tell all the |>> tree-huggers who think you drive a gas-guzzling SUV to piss off! :) |>

|> We have low sulfur diesel now. I have a VW Jette TDI back in the |> states. In fact the US environmental laws are far more harsh |> than anything in Europe. |>

|They can't be that harsh judging by the the numbers of people I see over |there driving round in 6.8 litre V10 petrol motors! I think petrol will need |to get a lot more expensive than it is now before a real market for diesels |in anything but large pick-ups will develop properly, rather than just a |niche.

Too many gear heads into performance vehicles among US automotive engineers. That is the real problem.

We do have a large diesel market, truck based. And people are now wanting diesels in the smaller pickups. They also want a pickup that is tough. Most US pickups will not take the abuse that the LD Defender will take. Besides we have too many Toyota pickups anyway.

|> BTW, Jeep is suppose to sell the Liberty with the Mercedes Common |> Rail Diesel but that not yet happened. |>

|There are no technical reasons why you should not have a big choice of |diesels - it's the marketing departments of the motor manufacturers who |don't believe the market exists or you would already have them. | |>>> And why doesn't the US military use the Defender as a basic, and |>>> cheaper, vehicle for the average troops? |>>

|>> Politically, it is very difficult for the US to procure non-domestic |>> military kit. Even when the US military decided they must have |>> British Harriers, the top brass had to lie to congress and leap |>> through all sorts of hoops to make them look American before they |>> could purchase them. Same thing with the British Chobham armour used |>> on all abrams tanks. The US Rangers bought some special Defenders |>> called RSOV but I doubt they will ever figure very highly. |>

|> LD is now part of Ford Motor Company, just as Jeep is now part of |> Mercedes. | |Perception is reality I'm afraid. People see LR and think English. Maybe |when the POTUS swaps his limo for a Jag your army will get LR's, but I |wouldn't hold my breath! :)

when I tell the local cops about how British bobbies drive the Jag XJ8, they are ready to swap their Crown Vics in for the XJ8. Now there would be a sales tool! US folks do like to buy what the coppers drive.

Reply to
R. David Steele

|> As for the US military, it does use Land Rovers. IIRC US Marines and some |> other special forces use them. | |The Marines and others (Rangers?) ordered a small number of Defenders |after the first Gulf War, because the Defender turned out much more |suitable for the rapid desert raids than the Hummer. However IIRC the |Defenders were ordered without engines to be fitted with GMC 6.3L V8 |diesels on arrival. I'm not sure how that would affect desert driving, |for the worse I would think it's a heavy engine.

Question: how tough is the Defender in comparison to the Hummer? Will it take the abuse that US soldiers give?

Frankly, in comparison to the cost of the Hummer, an armored LD would allow us to equip more troops with vehicles.

Nothing is going to stop an RPG-7 round this side of a tank. But a little armor might help protect from small arms fire and some land mines.

My concern is having a vehicle that does not cost us over $100,000 US.

Reply to
R. David Steele

I think one of the deciding factors in the purchase of Defenders for SF use is that they are air portable, and fit inside Chinook helicopters, this allows SF teams to be flown behind enemy lines with transport. A lot better than having to drive over hostile terrain to your patrol area.

Reply to
Vernon

Half the abuse the Hummer is subjected to is due to it's own lumbering weight.

Not being the size of a battleship or as slow as one helps you not to get shot in the first place.

Isn't that the cost of a chevy pickup with green paint in the US military? :)

Reply to
Chris Phillipo

The Hummer has a reputation of being rather fragile, among the British military. Certainly the H1 at least was regarded as a mild joke rather than a battle vehicle. I think the H2 was supposed to be better.

The Land Rover isn't perfect, but it is IMO way better than a Hummer as far as rugged build and longevity goes. I just saw a reminder (on TV tonight) that for the ultimate in off-road there's the Bowler Wildcat. Loosely based on a Defender with Hummer type long travel suspension and a decent V8. It's capable of 0.-60 in 5s but can also travel all day across the desert at >70mph. At GBP 40,000 it's also still (just) cheaper than a Hummer.

The SAS tend to use very old Land Rovers, Series III with a windscreen (only), no roof. These are both v. cheap and v. rugged and they can carry a decent payload.

Well... composite armour is a possibility as well as reactive armour. It may be possible to get an armoured vehicle that could stop an RPG and still weigh less than 7 tonnes.

Cost of a hammer to the US Army isn't it? (Independence Day)

Reply to
Steve Firth

There's one American cop car that is a poor copy of the older XJ40 - I think it's a Pontiac. Can't recall the name of it, but it has the same overall look of an XJ40 with the same square headlights.

Humm, very few UK coppers get to drive XJ8s. Nowadays they are mostly reserved for Whitehall (government) use. The standard "tool" for motorway work is the Volvo T5. Most local coppers use a Vauxhall Astra (GM) or a Peugeot (French but built in Coventry). I couldn't see any doughnut sucking American Cop fitting behind the steering wheel of the either of last two cars.

One of the police stations I visit for my work has a fleet of Ford Explorers.

Reply to
Steve Firth

R> But in my experience, the Landie seems to be a tough as most R> Hummers plus it maneuvers down narrow European streets. And it

I guess we're screwed when we go to war against France.

Reply to
Michael Bain

So, the Defender might do as an affordable combat vehicle. What is that Mercedes G-Wagon? I hear that it is over $100,000!!!

And now the army is pushing some "off the shelf" Chevy truck that is going to cost $100,000 per unit!!! No wonder they have to make the military smaller, there is no other way to equip the troops.

But then the Canadian army only has four tanks....

Reply to
N9NWO

Now if they would only see the diesel V-6 in the US. We have lots of folks who are into diesels these days. VW is seeing a huge jump in business due to the gas prices.

BTW, great sites!!!!!

Reply to
N9NWO

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