Land Rover newbie with loads of questions so please be patient!
I need help deciding which model is best for me. I need to transport myself, wife, six month old baby, and two (usually filthy) springer spaniels to and from the hills 3 or 4 times a week. There will be no extreme off-roading, muddy tracks and fields is as bad as it gets.
I really like the idea of older (tax exempt) SWB ones, especially the soft-tops. The vehicle will be used all year round but only for short journeys (its a 10/15 minute journey to the hills). Decent fuel economy would be nice but not vital (I'm used to running a 4 ltr TVR). What is vital is that I can fit myself, the wife, child seat and dogs inside. Is this possible in a series II or III? Do they have seat belts suitable for child seats? If not, can they be retro-fitted? Do you think I'd be better off with an early 90/110 or even a CSW? Can baby seats fit in these ok?
Budget is not really important but couldnt afford a new defender so would have to be a series landy or early 90/110.
Your can do all of that with any land rover although I suspect a lwb or 110 station wagon is the way to go. You and the wife up front, baby strapped in the middle row seats and dog behind a guard in the back.
An older series 2.25 petrol or v8 will return in the region of 12-18 mpg on short runs, diesel a bit higher. If you want economy you will have to look at more modern TDIs in the 90/110.
My S3 lwb had only lap belts when I bought it, these are easily and cheaply converted to 3 point inertia belts.
I think with your requirements you could live happily with any land rover, just buy the one you like and enjoy it.
All my passengers fall asleep on long runs despite the noise and ride, it may also work for small children, I'm sure somebody else from the group can comment on this.
The Series Landies dont have much in the way of seat belts full stop. A 109 I had at one point had been owned by a bloke who had got a britax baby seat and bolted it to the floor in the back! Side seats dont tend to be all that accomodating, so the solution I guess, would be to go to exmoore trim or BLRS and get a single forward facing seat, and all the associated seat belt mounting kit, so that you can strap a baby seat to it in the conventional manner. Trouble is those seats take up most of the load space in the back of a 90. I've seen two of them fitted, one either side, but then there is no space for the passengers to actually get into them, and hardly any space behind for luggage!
To be honest, I'd say that unless you really want a 'classic' truck, or a 'real' leaf sprung (read, harsh, gutless and uncivilised) Landie - Steer clear of the series 2's or 3's. An early 90 is a little better, but not much.
Best VFM by a LONG LONG way at the moment is a Range Rover Classic. You can get a good one for a Grand, which would only just get you a useable Series
Two grand gets you something pretty useful - either something that is well presented and with a profesionally fitted diesel, or an LPG conversion, or something that has been detailed out for seriouse off-roading or whatever. Three grand and you have pretty well choice over late standard cars or well presented earlier ones, etc.
Best thing about them is that the drive like a 'normal' car.
For what you sugest, I'd go looking for a 1990ish Vogue 3.9 V8 Automatic, on LPG. Incredibly refined, all the toys, extremely comfy. Anti Roll bars make it a bit less useful off road than earlier examples, (Not that you are likely to notice), and make ride on the road a bit more taut.
I know you said that economy was not you most important consideration, after a 4.0l TVR, but a Rangie probably weighs three times as much, and has three times the frontal area - they manage about 15mpg on average. I've got it up to over 20 in ours on a long, and gentle run, but the wife, who just boots it every where is lucky to get it into double figures!
LPG dont make it any more economical, but does get you twice the gallons per pound.
Seat belts and seats that take baby cradles, seats and boosters - and a boot you can shove a couple of Labradoor sized muts in. We have a third row seat in the back of ours, and can get three more kids on that. In fact, I can just about sit on it, and I'm 6'2".
Other idea may be a Disco. Seems a popular family choice - has all the usefulness of a Rangie, but not quite so much refinement or the extras, and they cost more!
I dont have any serious objection to them, and they dont seem to have many major vices, but they do seem to live harder lives than equivilent Rangies, and mid to low end examples can be a bit risky - come accross a couple of examples where good money has been paid for a well polished and presented Disco that couldn't pass an MOT and needed a lot of money spending to make it do so - but I think that that is a risk with a lot of cars of a certain age in that price band.
I bought a second-hand Disco ('94 300TDi, 3 door) for just under =A35k=20 which I think was a fair price for both of us. I had the AA do a full=20 check on it (costs about =A3250 IIRC), and that was well worth it as I=20 then had bargaining power to knock the price down a bit from what the=20 guy wanted. The AA guy really knew what he was doing as well and told me=20 it was possibly the best condition he'd ever seen a Disco of that age=20 (bodywork is immaculate, very very little rust anywhere - two owners,=20 one old guy who bought it for his dog and the second bought it for his=20 wife but she didn't like it as she couldn't park it).
2.5 diesel would be pretty good for trips of the length mentioned.
I used to pick up my nephew every week from when he was only a few months old and he'd be asleep within a few miles every time, even if he was crying his eyes out when he got in (110CSW v8, more noisy than most v8 LRs!). He still loves the LR! You won't have a problem with kids in a 110 as they can look out the window and actually see things, not like your average family saloon where they can't see anything apart from the interior. IMHO.
I wanted to steer away from the more modern stuff (i.e rangies). I already own a fairly modern 4x4 in the shape of an M Reg Frontera LWB which has - contrary to some opinions - been great, both on and of road (intermediate grass-laning). Its our every day car but the wife wants something smaller (like a focus) for work. However, we both still love 4x4's and we'll need something else as well to replace it. The TVR is going too as it doesnt really get much use now I have a family, which is why I quite fancied a rag top landie as I love open top mortoring.
I really wanted to get back to basics as I love classic cars. An older series landy or early 90/110 just seems to have so much more character than anything else. The thing is I've never driven one and I'd like to get a feel for it first. Rather than waste a seller's time, if anyone reading this lives near Taunton, Somerset and fancies letting me have a quick spin on the road in their old landie I'd appreciate it! I'll let you have a go at piloting my TVR Griffith in return! I can double de-clutch so lack of syncro isnt a problem.
Looks like its down to an old leafer then Would say by the sound of it that it's going to have to be a LWB 10 County Station Waggon, so you get the back seats for the bab and th back for the muts Gives you three or four choices, between Series 2 or Series 3. S2 & both gives you a choice of four pot petrol, four pot diesel, or six po petrol engines. Series 3 also gives you Stage 1 V8 with flat front an permenant four wheel drive like the later 110's I'd say avoid the diesels - they are just so sluggish you wouldn' believe. I know, I have one, and it makes less power than a mini The four pot petrols are a BIT better, and if you find a bit of roa long enough you can just about wind them up to 70mph if you're brav enough Six pot is a forgotten old auntie - it's still not quick, but it make enough extra power for things not to be so frustrating, and does so in very relaxed way. They were not that popular becouse they wer considered a bit thirsty in thier day - but no Landy is tha economical, so its no great burden these days Given the budget, I think that an S2 Six CSW pot would be top of m list But you'd have to hunt to find one in decent nick A good way to go might be to contact some-one like Liverage 4x4 wh will renovate an old Landie to your spec. They will either find one fo you or do one that you supply Not cheap, but they will do things like fit 110 seat belts in the bac and a dog guard and make sure that the rest of it is in tip top shap and will give you plenty of trouble free motoring As for finding some-one to give you a ride in one - I'm trying t thing who I know off the Forums down your kneck of the woods I know a couple of lads in Somerset and a couple in Wiltshire, but I' not sure what Landies they have Best bet I can suggest is you put a request up on the LROi S2 & S Forums: 'Series 2 Q&A'
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'Series 3 Q&Q'
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move pretty quick, so you should get a response reasonablsoon
I have a fleet of Landrovers and will start by saying that the SII or SIII swb will be the most impractical for your needs. This is based initially along the lines of the amount of faffing around required to safely buckle up junior in the back. It's not impossible but will be a real PITA. Then you have to think about the muddy dogs. Once a forward facing seat has been fitted you not going to have alot of muddy dog space left.
A 109 will get over alot of these problems if it's a Station Wagon, five door. The Standard 109 will present the same problems as the SWB.
Early Rangerovers and even Discoverys can now be bought at less than the cost of a decent series motor. Spending under £1000 on a series motor will either mean you'll have a shed load of work or your very lucky if you get a rot free one which can be used as a daily driver.
Fuel economy... forget it.. at least in a Petrol Series motor. If your last motor was a TVR then you will be used to poor standards of build and high maintainance costs [1] . A Diesel series will afford little better fuel consumption (around 25mpg), but be prepared to acquaint youself with the oils shelf at your local Petrol station Kiosk as the Series motors have thirst for engine oil [1].
As much as I love the series (I have a 1964 SIIa with Jaguar 4.2 Engine and 3 Speed Autobox) it's just not the car to use as your main daily driver. I also have a 101 Ambulance mid conversion to an expedition vehicle which offers more attraction in creature comfort but sheer size makes it impractical for the city centre carparks.
I've just won Mrs D's 1990 Range Rover TD, It's a 2.5 Diesel, does a steady 35 mpg, offers comfort to a family and has in the past had a Large german Shephard and a smaller Shephard cross in the boot no problem (unless your dog has any disability which height jumping in may cause and issue. The rear Tailgates are practical in so much as if you do any DIY then you can have all manner of things hanging out the back. I'd seriously look at one of these if I were you. If your used to V8 burble then get a V8 and have it gassed. 14mpg at half the price of the fuel currently is a little easier to live with. The Diesels are economic (by comparision) but are agricultuaral to save the least, especially with older vehicles. Steer Clear of Perkins modifications as anything none standard may leave it off the road longer than desired purely due to being none standard.
Are latest acquisition is a V8 Discovery on LPG. I should have done this years ago. Loads of boot space at the sacrifice of the handy tailgates. Options to drop down 2 extra seats. (Possible in a Rangie but not practical unless you travelling backwards everwhere). I find its a nicer tow vehicle than the Rangie we have, partly due to being auto, partly due to being newer. A recent one may be outside your budget however older ones are knocking around at less than the price of a good series. Be prpared however for some work as the older ones may have a few pannels with corrrosion (Ally) which need addressing, but then the same applies to any old Landrover.
If you have never driven Landrovers go out and try each type before making any kind of choice. Think through exactly what you need and don't let anything else sway your choice. Looks like your half way there but a seires would be way down my list and I'm as bigger fan of them as then next groupie.
Lee D
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[1] Unless your one in a thousand lucky owners.
From your own description you need a Discovery. Since economy is not a bother to you, I'd suggest a 4.0l petrol V8. You can swap parts with the TVR if needed.
A lot of people are swaying you away from a series, but for what its worth, I use a series 2a (1968) as my daily vehicle.
She has a fairey overdrive & 2.5litre sherpa engine conversion, does a comfortable 50 mph on the road, getting about 25mpg too at this speed.
You do need to love landrovers to live with a series, but I would say it will comfortably do what you want. It may even be possible to fit a centre seat to perch the baby seat on, leaving the whole back for the mutts?
I'm hoping to do this with my Series 2 in October. However, it will be a few months before the OP's child is ready for a forward-facing seat, which is the only option with lap belts. There are plenty of forward facing seats with lap-only mountings (and I have one ready and waiting)...
However, child seats are universally quite wide, and I expect this to be a problem. Three abreast in a Series is always snug, and the seat I have has blooming big wings on it (great for side protection and sleeping against) which will make it tricky. Might be easier with a custom-made centre seat fitted to the seat box - I'm hoping to use standard three-abreast seats to make it useable for adults too.
I also think a Series is quite a good possibility for the OP, particularly once the nipper is a couple of years older and could sit in the centre in a harness of some description. Then again, I think the Discovery will be easier to live with. Remind me why I'm selling mine?
On or around 19 Aug 2004 01:32:08 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (Jamie T) enlightened us thusly:
get a tidy tax-exempt one, series II or very early III (personally, I reckon the series II (not IIA) with the lights in the front panel rather than the wings) has more character).
either buy one cheap and regard it as an ongoing project to improve it or pay more for one that has been restored.
critically important is to have someone who understands LRs to look at it for you, in the latter case especially, to avoid buying a dud.
many years ago I bought a series II 2¼ SWB soft top with very sad rear chassis but good engine and box, for 60 quid. I took all the back body off behind the bulkhead, drove it thusly to the local garage where they worked on the chassis to the tune of a couple of hundred quid (I'd do it meself, these days) and fitted some new remould tyres. I then collected it, rebuilt it and drove it around for a year or more, no heater, after a few months I sold the original registration number which financed among other things a new hood. I can honestly say that it was one of the most fun vehicles I've ever had, notwithstanding the hessian sack seat covers and lack of heater and leaky roof (although that was fixed with the new canvas).
On or around Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:08:22 GMT, Peter R. enlightened us thusly:
This is another option of course.
but rather than a 4.0 I'd personally hunt a 3.5 or 3.9 V8 (easier to work on) or a 300TDi. 300TDis start in about 1995, and the earlier ones are not too pricey now, and if you look around you can find a nice low-mileage example. Parts and servicing are not to pricey on the earlier (pre TD5) disco I either. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the earlier "200" type discos, either - but finding a good, not rusted, low-mileage one takes more effort. the 200TDi is a damned good engine too. In fact, having got both types here I find it hard to decide which is best - the interior of the
200 is no worse, just different. The 300 dash has cupholders, and the 300 has better heating and ventilation. The seats and stuff are pretty much identical, though the driver's seat moves back further from the dash giving more knee-room for taller drivers on the 200 than on (our) 300.
The V8, for suitable extra money, can be converted to LPG using under-floor tanks. cost me about 900 quid for the parts; the special tanks are not cheap.
However I predict that if you get a decent disco, you'll end up selling the frontera :-)
Thanks everyone for the comments. Have test driven a couple over the weekend - gotta say, I love the series SWB landies! Just a question of fitting the nipper on board really. With the wife on board as well, I just dont know if there will be enough room in the central seat for the baby seat... hmmm.
I dont really want a disco as I'll have the same problems I have now with the frontera i.e. higher insurance, more expensive parts, really nasty wet dog smell (theres carpets in the back), dog hairs in every nook and cranny etc etc. At least with an older landy theres no carpets and I can just hose the back out if it gets really muddy!
A few of you said its not a good idea to have a series as a daily driver. Well it isnt really going to be a daily driver as such - just for going to the hills 3 or so times a week. Even if I did decide to drive it to work, I used to drive an MG midget 1275 as evey day car and I got on fine with that. After driving the landies at the weekend I wouldnt say that they're any more uncomfortable, just slower.
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