ES - Change in Maintenance Schedule from 7,500 to 5,000 Miles

I've driven Mercedes and Lexus for years. I used to overmaintain and only use the dealer. I have found, however, that it's best to do common-sense-but-minimum maintenance and to use independents when possible. In the end, NONE of my vehicles has EVER given me any problems that were related to improper maintenance, and resale values...trade in or sell outright...has never been penny less. It just doesn't freakin' matter...as long as you do the common-sense minimum. And FOR SURE never do the DEALER maintanance schedules...they are hyped-up schedules that are just dealer profit centers.

Lexus: Change the oil, rotate the tires (and there is even good argument against doing that), flush the tranny and radiator at higher miles and drive on.

Thanks, Mark. What we have here is a mess of contradictory information from Lexus. The above link says "scheduled maintenance every 5,000 to

7,500 miles (or every 4 to 6 months), depending on your circumstances and driving habits" and then goes on to define the criteria for the shorter intervals as:

-Driving on unpaved or dusty roads

-Towing a trailer or using a camper or cartop carrier

-Repeated trips of less than five miles in temperatures below freezing

...which eliminates most Lexus drivers, I would think (at least in the summertime)

There's another table in the owner's section of

that shows

5,000 mile intervals with no reference to time intervals or driving conditions.

On pages 100 to 120 of the 2004 Lexus Owner's Manual Supplement they show a maintenance log with 5,000 mile and 6 month intervals. There's no reference to driving conditions that I can find.

I understand what you're saying, but I've had a hard time finding an independent I can trust. But it's more that just that. What if the independent mechanic finds something wrong with the car? Generally, I'd prefer to have the Lexus dealer do the serious work. Even if the independent is highly qualified and trustworthy, there's something to be said for what the dealer offers, namely, mechanics that work on the same car day in and day out. Also, if it's warranty work, the dealer just phones me for my approval and it's done. Bada-bing-bada-boom. No more appointments, etc.

Exactly. I'm very aware of that phenomenon. That's why I started this thread.

I usually get the service folks on the phone and go down the list of services and eliminate the unnecessary ones. The problem is that Lexus is giving conflicting information about their maintenance schedule (see my prior posting today). And it's not at all clear what the recommended and/or minimum schedules are.

I only wish it were that simple!

Oops! the large 49KB file was my attempt at posting the relevant page from the Lexus web site. Sorry about that.

Here are the relevant details which I hope helps.

Determining The Proper Maintenance Interval

Your Lexus should receive scheduled maintenance every 5,000 to 7,500 miles (or every 4 to 6 months), depending on your circumstances and driving habits.

5,000-Mile Or 4-Month Intervals

Use 5,000-mile or 4-month intervals if you primarily drive your Lexus under any of the following conditions:

-Driving on unpaved or dusty roads

-Towing a trailer or using a camper or cartop carrier

-Repeated trips of less than five miles in temperatures below freezing

7,500-Mile Or 6-Month Intervals

Use 7,500-mile or 6-month intervals if you primarily drive your Lexus under conditions less strenuous than those listed above.

circumstances

Exactly. And the 2004 Lexus Owner's Manual Supplement says, on page 98, "Maintenance of your vehicle according to the recommendations in this booklet is required to ensure that your warranty coverage remains intact." The "recommendations" in the booklet are 5K and 6 month intervals. No mention of driving conditions or 7.5K intervals. Or 4 month intervals, for that matter.

While I presume that the 2004 Lexus Owner's Manual Supplement trumps the website, nonetheless, Lexus needs to get their story straight.

I agree. but I think this is a mostly academic distinction. With the history of V6 sludge issues and the very small increase in running costs by doing three oil changes every 15K miles rather than two, you should be doing it at 5K, without doubt.

(Anybody who thinks these oil change intervals are driven by engineers based on technical data should consider that virtually every car that has a free maintenance program - MB, BMW, Volvo, Audi - recommends 12K+ intervals, some even out to 20K. Every car that doesn't have such a program recommends

5K-7.5K intervals. And the people whose sole business is oil changes - Jiffy Lube - recommend 3K. Oil change intervals are driven by each party's view on how to make the most money, not technical reasons.)

BTW, many dealers will do a lot of unnecessary service during a "5K check". Just tell them you want an oil changed, nothing more. This should bring the price down. If they insist on doing unnecessary services or are unwilling to charge a reasonable fee (around $50), then find an independent garage. If you keep good records, there is no reason that a car with 5K interval oil changes done at an independent shop would suffer in comparison with a car serviced at the dealership, either with respect to resale or with respect to warranty coverage. I would try and get the 15K checks done at the dealership while the car is in warranty, both for resale and for no-questions-asked service on any warranty repair.

Once out of warranty, I always try and find a trusted mechanic that I can actually talk to, and try to build a relationship with. And I try and do as much of the work as I can. This dramatically reduces costs. On a recent brake service, I had the front brake pads replaced for $100 when the dealer wanted to unnecessarily do all four wheels with new rotors for $700. The rear brakes were less than half worn and all four rotors were well within spec.

- Mark

Ok. NEARLY nobody qualifies for the 7,500 mile service interval. This is because your car is not driven under IDEAL conditions exclusively (ie, 200 miles per day at 65 mph with no stops and in 75 degree + desert weather.

What was called "severe" (an overstatement) is really how most people drive. There ought to be Super Severe for the times you endure heavy rains or prolonged ice/snow operation.

I don't buy that for a minute. Severe driving is severe driving. The normal

20-40 miles per day with some stop and start is NORMAL. Read Consumer Reports...they did a whole thing on oil changes a few years back and the bottom line is that changing according to the "normal" frequency with regular dino oil was no less effective then using synthetic and/or changing more often.

They did this study over eight years ago in 1996. It was based on doing engine teardowns of NYC taxicabs running a couple different oils and change intervals. While certainly better than nothing, it is getting pretty long in the tooth and there has always been the issue of whether NYC taxi-cab operating conditions (virtually continuous running, infrequent cold starts, and very short calendar times between changes) have much to do the typical privately-owned and operated car.

IOW, this study shows that for commercial taxi-cab service, 3K oil change intervals and synthetic oils probably don't improve engine durability enough to be worth the extra cost. Whether you can extrapolate this conclusion to our cars is open to debate.

I think the biggest factor is simply whether you plan on keeping the car past 75K miles or so. If not, then why pay for engine durability you'll never see?

- Mark

At the extreme, the Toyotas (but not limited to) that have sludged have done so well before 75k miles (however you came up with that figure is another discussion). Certainly NOW Toyota dealers are more wary about taking in used cars with minimal oil servicing and/or an absence of CONSISTANT oil servicing. BTW, when you go to auction, usually the buyer has 24 hrs after taking delivery to return the car for refund if a significant mechanical deficiency is discovered.

Next point is that IF your attitude becomes pervasive, then the market for used cars is devalued.

Frankly, I don't care what you "buy." I have about 25 years of independent shop and dealer experience working on three different brands of cars and trucks (in the dealerships).

To say that "Severe driving is severe driving" does NOT define what severe is. Why not say fat is fat? Or wet is wet? When is hot too hot?

The first thing you need to know about Consumer Reports is that few knowledgeable people in the industry take them seriously.

I can tell you one thing. Severe is NOT ordinary. That's what you seem to be saying severe is.

No. What I have implied is "severe" is far more the norm than the owners book would lead you to believe.

From an SAE/API point of view, "normal" could be operating conditions that impose the least amount of stress on the oil. Severe would be a different range of conditions that cut the useful life of the oil (actually, the additives) by 33% (just picking an arbitrary percentage).

SEVERE would certainly be frequent short trips with 30 minute cool downs in between, prolonged idling in very cold weather, short trips in very humid weather. These three conditions are the ones that promote "sludge" formation. At the other end of the SEVERE spectrum would be prolonged high heat (prolonged: oil temperature at least 60 degrees above engine coolant temperature), small oil supply, sustained RPMs above 4,000. These are conditions that promote varnish and accelerated oil additive oxydation. The optimal condition for oil life would be where the oil is brought up to

190-215 degrees and kept there until the oil falls out of grade. This RARELY happens in passenger vehicles. (Is more the norm in stationary generating plants and over-the-road diesel trucks covering 700+ miles each day).

FYI, my 92 ES300 is coming up on 360K, and I religiously change oil and filter every 5000 miles. Reason? The 3000 miles the oil places want is too often -- they just want to make more money. The 7500 miles is pushing it a little, in my opinion. And 5000 miles is REAL easy to notice on the odometer.

I use 10-40, usually Castrol (just because Castrol is what the shop uses where I go.) Nothing special.

Engine never rebuilt. Uses about 1.5 quarts every 5000 miles.

My results have been awesome, to say the least.

RR

Look guys, Lexus can not stand severe operating conditions. You have to change the oil at least every 5,000 miles. So their car engines are just not as good as the competition anymore. Face it - they are going downhill fast. Sorry, but true.

PERSONALLY ... I've examined the crankcase ventilation system layout on the V6 and I believe it to be marginal in its vapor flow routing and volume. This has NOTHING to do with the quality of the engine in general. But it does make a very sound engine more vulnerable to sludge. But before you go running off half cocked again, note that Chrysler has the same sludge susceptibility in one or two of their V6's.

There just isn't any magic that goes on during an oil change. The first one I did on our ES330 took awhile but then I got one of those cap filter wrenches and now it is a breeze. I wouldn't feel one bit more secure knowing a lexus mechanic changed my oil. I can be 100% confident that I got the old oil to drip out of the bottom, and that I put clean oil back in the top. And that puts me about $40 better off when its all over.

What does rain have to do with an oil change interval?

I have heard TERRIBLE THINGS about using 10W 40. I read somewhere (sorry, can't remember where) that 10-W 40 is a bad weight oil for most engines, especially the ones that call for 5W30. But 360k on it doesn't tell the same story I heard.