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lexus has a problem

We bought a 2004 Lexus ES330 new . We looked at Avalon and Camry before we bought. The ES330 is basically the same running gear and engine as the Avalon and the Camry. FWD 3.3 liter 6cyl. It was updated in '04 to

3.3 liters from the previous 3.0 liters (the ES330) The car is a great car, we have the Navigation also and it works reasonably well although can be confusing at times.We have been very happy with the car ....until last Sunday.....

Now the bad: While in Las Vegas this last weekend (1-28, 1-29-06) I was driving the car and stopped at a light. The brake pedal then slowly sunk to the floor! Whoa! says I, this ain't right! I pumped the pedal and the brake returned to a normal brake height. At the next light, guess what?... it sunk to the floor again! No brakes! I pumped it again a couple of times and the brake pedal returns to normal height. I does this 2- 3 times again on the way back to our lodging in Las Vegas. When I parked it in the parking space at our apt, I was able to make it go to the floor again with very little pressure on the brake pedal. We called Lexus of Las Vegas on Monday 1-30-06 and had them flatbed the car to the dealer for repairs. They at first told me it was a "bubble in the brake line and they "bled it out"...BS..there was no bubble, there was no loss of fluid, there was no repair. They said because they "couldn't duplicate the problem" they weren't authorized to change the master cyl. That we should just come pick it up and drive it until it looses it brakes again! I said .."NO WAY!!!!" Fix it , it's under warranty and it only has

17,000 miles on it. Well it turns out that Lexus won't let there service mgrs. make a decision on their own, but must be able to "duplicate the problem" in order to authorize a repair. My position was that the brakes had failed not once on Sunday, but several times and that anything over once was one time to many. I asked if the service manager would put his wife in a car that had the brake pedal go to the floor and tell her that he can't do anything unless he actually sees the brake pedal on the floor. ( He'll be sleeping on the couch for a while!)

I told him I wasn't willing to see the brake pedal on the floor and my significant other on a stretcher being taken to a hospital because he couldn't "duplicate the failure" in his shop. I asked him if he had heard the term "intermittent failure" . He said yes, but his mantra was : I can't replace the part unless I can "dup......Blah , Blah , Blah" .

We live in Los Angeles, the car's in Las Vegas, & so is my S.O. And nothing is fixed, NO loan car for 3 days. I then called the Lexus dealer in Van Nuys where we bought the car new (Keyes Lexus in Van Nuys Ca) and asked if they could intervene. I got the same answer: We can't do anything unless they can "Duplicate the failure" Then I tried to call the Lexus customer service line (1800 25-LEXUS) and there's no answer at 4:15 pm PST. I tried it 4 times , It just rings and rings and finally hangs up on you. ( I guess their cars only break before 4:15 PM ) Bottom line: You may think you're getting the best, but sometimes you don't get what you pay for. Today is Wednesday, 2-1-06 and the car has been at Las Vegas Lexus for

3 days, no repair, NO loan car. Refusal to tow it to our home so we can have it fixed in Los Angeles and ....A very Pi---- off customer. A customer who when we signed the purchase contract also was given a warranty.. and they are not living up to their obligations on the agreement we both entered into.

So folks, like the housing market, so is the Vehicle market turning. Customer satisfaction is slowly going out the window. I hope the quality stays above water until Somebody out there cares enough to take care of the customer after the sale. If not, Toyota Motors USA will be joining GM and Ford, et al, in the slippery slide. By the way, I was in the automotive field in the 70's and 80's and saw the dismal products that were made in those two decades, so I left the business. I ran an automotive service center. I still am an automotive enthusiast and work on my own antique, classic & street rod vehicles that embrace all of the new technology. I am not afraid of the new technology and have a broad understanding of it including the Computerization of the automobile.

BUT... I have a warranty.

Reply to
2sw
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And thus endeth my considerations of the LS460 as my next car!

Reply to
mcbrue

I agree this is bad management on that dealer.

Even though I agree with them on not replacing any part that they can't seem to find the problem on currently. But at least offer you a loaner car and have the technicians drive it for extended miles ( with your permission ) until the problem occurs.

Reply to
Nad1370

Interesting. Be even more interesting to hear the dealership service manager's version.

You are clearly misrepresenting the service guy's position. He is using his judgment in deciding what to replace or not replace. That judgment is based on what his shop can observe as a failure itself. This is not unusual. Very few warranty repairs will be done of any sort unless the repair shop can duplicate the complaint. Nothing new here.

Reply to
GLitwinski

Thanks to lemon laws, dealerships will not attempt to repair any condition that they cannot observe. For example, if they replaced the master cylinder and the condition continued, they would already have one lemon law attempt. On the other hand, they should have questioned you very carefully and took a long road test with you so that they can duplicate the condition.

Reply to
Ray O

I wonder if Toyota would follow this practice?

Ken

Reply to
NJ Vike

Yes, Toyota does follow this practice.

Reply to
Ray O

Yes, it doesn't seem reasonable to expect that the dealer should replace a part that appears to be operating properly.

That seems like a reasonable, albeit temporary, solution to this strange problem. But what if they don't find anything wrong?

Reply to
David Z

Then give it back to the customer and explain what tests they did in order to duplicate the problem. Also have it documented that the customer came in with an issue reagrding brake operation but could not duplicate.

Now if the customer insists there is a problem, have a regional rep. take a look at it and see what he thinks. If still not satisfied....call the 800 number and open up a case. Although If the dealer, rep, couldn't find anything wrong in the brake operation then it's pointless to go this far.

Regarding on the pedal sinking to the floor...Sometimes with the A.C. on sitting on a stop light with my foot on the brake pedal. My brake pedal also sinks about 1/4-3/8 of an inch. To me I think it's normal since the brake booster is vaccum assisted. But if it goes all the way down to the floor ....then there is a problem.

Reply to
Nad1370

Brakes fail for only a couple of reasons. So lets first consider what's possibly wrong and then sort out who's to pay for its repair.

Either the master cylinder is defective, or there's a leak in a caliper or brake hose, or, exhaust is heating a brake line to the point of boiling the fluid. ALL the latter can be quickly checked (lost fluid and signs of a leak, examination of all brake lines near the exhausts) and, if found OK, leaving the master cylinder by default. What's the big deal?

Reply to
T.G. Lambach
1998 Lexus GS. At 30K miles the car was picked up by the selling Lexus dealer for service. The dealer was to have among other things, flush the brake fluid. Upon return I found that the brake pedal, when hard pressed with the engine running, would go to the floor, hard enough to bind a piece of paper between it and the floor stop. I can not say that this was not the case before the car was returned for this service. The car was returned to the dealer at his expense on a flat bed. The dealer stated that they found nothing wrong as this was normal. Upon further investigation I found that the brake pedal may indeed go down to a maximum of 1/2" above the floor when hard pressed with the auto running as per the service manual. There should never be less than 1/2" between the pedal and the st>>I wonder if Toyota would follow this practice?
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Reply to
KG

Should have gone up and down the strip with the service mgr behind the wheel. If they were going to go out they would if not then Yes it was air in the line or what ever and it was fix. You did not say if you were at the dealer when they unloaded for the flatbed or not. If the brakes were bad when you parked the car they should still have been bad when they unloaded the car off the flatbed.

Reply to
billy

OK - I'm convinced! No more Lexi in this family!!!

Reply to
mcbrue

Ah Hell, they're overpriced and overrated anyway! Just kidding. :-)

On a serious note though, I do feel for the original poster because it sounds as though he's sort of stuck between a rock and hard place. Sometimes automobile issues can be a major drain on a person. You wouldn't believe what all I went through with a 2002 model SUV a few years back. Too long of a story to tell.

Ron M.

Reply to
Ron M.

This is the same story repeated hundreds of times by all ES owners during the past 4 years who have complained about the transmission problem. Don't rag on the dealer, it's not his policy. It's Lexus. And my family is done with Lexus too.

Reply to
Mack

You haven't even mentioned the transmission lag problem in their ECU programming/design in the ES and RX series vehicles. That's the "feature" of my 2002 ES300 that is ending my relationship with Lexus. After 3 tries, they still haven't produced an adequate fix. Steeeee-rike threeeeee!!!!!

Reply to
Rumple Stiltskin

Reminds me of the time a friend bought a new Supercharged T-Bird. The engine had an intermittent knock. The dealership wouldn't do anything because they couldn't hear the knock. He took the car out on a back road and ran it against the RPM limiter for a couple of miles. The knock was REALLY evident then but he didn't stop there. He said "I wanted to make sure they got me a new engine and not just fixed the one in the car" so he ran it hard until it exploded. What you are experiencing is a safety issue. I would make a point of getting the service writers and service managers name and documenting the times and dates of your discussion with them. Explain to them that if anything happened while being forced to drive a car with bad brakes, they would be named PERSONALLY in the law suit. Good Luck

Reply to
Bill in Yakima

The unasked question: did your car move actually move forward at all? Perhaps you were stressed out about how much money you lost in Vegas and were venting your frustrations subconciously by pressing your brake foot down. Kind've like when you're a passenger and the person who's driving doesn't seem like they're going to stop in time; you subconciously push your left foot down on the non-existent right side brake pedal. :)

No brakes as in the "car began to move forward-again"?

Next time when the pedal sinks to the floor, try moving to a safe location, try to duplicate the condition, transfer your left foot onto the brake pedal while holding it down to the floor, then try pressing progressively harder on the accelerator with your right foot to see if your brakes will hold the car?

Reply to
greg

Any dealer should use (or quickly acquire) some people skills here. I checked with a Lexus engineer and confirmed that all brake pedals do sink slightly while at rest. However, I my opinion, any dealer should recognize that you don't feel safe, and offer to replace the master cylinder under warranty. I know the issue is that head office may reject the warranty claim and the dealer then gets stuck with the bill - and that is likely the primary problem with the dealer. I would try another dealer and work with them -- in the dealer's eyes, they should see this is a cheaper fix than a) losing a Lexus customer for life or b) having to force Lexus to buy back the vehicle under the lemon law.

If that doesn't work, dribble a little brake fluid onto the underside of the master cylinder and remove a few teaspoons from the reservoir and then drive it in to the dealer with the check engine light on.

Reply to
Jeff

Since when is it normal for ANY car to have the brake pedal sink to the floor ????? That Lexus engineer is probably just a shill for the undertaker down the street.

Reply to
mcbrue

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