We need to get a replacement second used car and were looking at the IS300 and older GS300s. I called the dealer to ask about maintenance costs, as I am being eaten alive by our incredibly unreliable '95 Honda Odyssey van. I was stunned by what the dealer told me. I am hoping someone can validate the maintenance frequency and costs, so I can get an accurate handle on costs. The frequency does not make sense to me.
Every 10k miles. $170 Every 15k miles. $360 Every 30k miles. $600 Every 90k miles. $1300
At that rate, it is over $4,000 for 90k miles, or 4.5 cents a mile! I have a BMW M3 and it doesn't cost anywhere near that to maintain. If these figures are wrong or the frequency is wrong, please let me know. Would hate to make a buying decision based on bad info. Also, what Lexus model might be cheaper to maintain?
I just bought a used 2003 300 RX in Apr. Just had the 25k service. Cost me $116. Just basically an oil change, tire rotation, clean air filter, lube rubber suspension components, check brakes, and a car wash. I think I can find a competent mechanic to do the same things for a lot less. Hope this helps.
The dealer would LOVE for you to come in and do his maintenance schedule and pricing.
What you need to do is see the owner's manual and add up the individual service items that the manual calls for.
Good example: my 02 Odyssey hit 30K miles last month. I asked the dealer, how much for a 30K service? $370, he said.
Hmmmm. I already had my own schedule in hand, having gotten that from the book. The necessary items: new air filter, new cabin air filter, oil change, brake fluid change, inspect brakes.
I did the air filter myself; $10. I did the cabin air filter myself; $25. I had them do an oil change, brake fluid flush, and rotate the tires (and while he was doing the tires, I asked, "How do the brakes look?"). $100 even, out the door.
Total: $135.
They would have charged me $40 for the cabin air filter and $72 to install it. Thanks, no. If I had to, I'd remove it and not reinstall it if replacing it was a $110 item. No thanks.
I bet I could have had the corner garage do the mechanical work they did, with equal results.
Your Lexus is worse; they charge more for both parts and labor. Hey, that fancy dealership building costs money to maintain.
You need to find a good independent mechanic and avoid the dealer as much as possible. Read the owner's manual carefully. Do what IT says needs to be done and AVOID the hyped service schedules that APPEAR to be factory recommendations but in reality are just dealer "severe service" recommedations adopted for everyone. Pay attention to timely fluid changes and the timing chain (if applicable). The rest generally should only be done as needed.
You can request what service you actually want performed. My Lexus dealer charges about 2 to 2.5 times what my Toyota dealer charges for simple things, like tire rotation, balance, and 4 wheel alignment. I've decided I will only use Lexus for my oil changes and warranty work, and Toyota for all else.
Luxury car dealers charge high rates. What you quoted is actually cheap for a Lexus dealer; mine wants $499 for a $15K maintenance for an ES330, which buys an oil change, transmission flush, and new air filter (plus "inspection" of a bunch of things). If you just buy those services from them, its cheaper: they charge $230 to flush the transmission fluid, and $55 for an oil change; so doing those two alone would "only" cost $285 (and you can get an air filter for $20 at an auto store and put it in yourself) -- cutting the price in half. If the luxurious waiting room, convenient hours, and ultra-courteous service are really important, then it may be worth it to you. Otherwise, consider an independent shop.
Regarding cheaper Lexus models to maintain: If you really want to have a dealer do the work, then consider getting an ES330 or RX330; these are mechanically identical under the hood to the Camry and the Highlander, so some Toyota dealers are willing to work on them. And, Toyota dealers charge less than Lexus dealers.
These costs are a little high but probably fairly representative of what dealers are charging these days. I don't understand the 10K services- typically Lexus specifies that you do either one or two oil changes between the 15K services and they should run somewhere around $75 or so.
You can cut these costs dramatically by a little DIY, finding a good independent mechanic, shopping among dealers and looking for specials, and making sure they only do what is specified by Toyota, not their gold-plated recommendations for extra service. You can probably cut the costs by one-third to one-half this way.
I'm unsure why you find spending $4K In 90K miles that out of line. Nor do I understand how you can maintain a BMW M3 for less. When I owned an M3, the prices for services at the BMW dealer were about the same as the Lexus dealer. If you're spending significantly less, then you're either cutting corners or doing some of the measure I mentioned above. There is no way I'd consider a BMW an inherently cheaper car to maintain, other than the free service during the warranty period.
If you're just going to throw the keys at the dealer and say "do the checks" then $4K in 90K miles is about what it takes to maintain any premium car.
I take my '98 M3 to an independent shop which is about 70% the cost of the dealer. Oil changes are around 10k miles at $80, for 7 quarts of synthetic oil and filter. The 25k service is about $400 and the 50k service about $670. The rates may be no better than Lexus, but following the BMW maintenance lights on the dash has me taking the car to the shop quite infrequently. Over the several years I have owned the '98 M3, a '91 Honda Accord, and a '95 Honda Odyssey van, all serviced at independent shops, the routine and expected maintenance on the M3 has been less. Mostly due to the more frequent visits the Honda require. The BMW has no timing belt to replace which also helps cut maintenance costs. On top of all of that, the M3 reliability has been markedly superior to the Hondas.
I am mechanically inclined, so if self maintenance is possible on the Lexus to some degree, I will do that. Now, just to find a competent independent Lexus shop in the San Francisco Bay area.
Well, my personal opinion is that the lesser frequency of the "lights on the dash" in the M3 means you're simply servicing the car less often - you could service the Lexus less often as well and the costs would line up better. There is nothing about an M3 engine that says it can go 15K miles between oil changes while the Lexus requires them at 7.5K - you simply maintaining the Lexus better which will pay off if you drive either car beyond 100K or so. If I had a M3 and I was planning on driving it awhile, there is no way I'd be leaving oil in there for 15K miles.
Things can break either way - you've gotten lucky with you M3 (mine required a new short block at 30K), but many find the Toyota products more reliable. You pays your money and takes your chances. I own two BMW products right now (a Mini Cooper and R1100S motorcycle), so I am a fan of their products also, but they can give you no end of problems.
Synthetic oil? On a car that's being driven fairly gently? Sure.
And the car knows how it's being driven, and adjusts for that. You're using the loud pedal all the time? The light will adjust downward for oil change intervals.
Yes, I am servicing the M3 less often, but that reduced frequency is what BMW recommends. The fact of the matter is that the Lexus maintenance schedule calls for the car to be serviced more frequently than BMW does. I could service the Lexus less often than called for, but then I could do that for the BMW as well.
I never said the M3 engine could go 15k miles between servicing. As I pointed out, oil changes are generally around 10k miles intervals, with other intervals at 25k and 50k. The car computer analyzes how you drive and adjusts those values accordingly. So, the mileage numbers vary. In the end, the M3 tells me I am due for one of three things, an Oil Service, Inspection 1 or Inspection II, and calls for one of them every 10k miles or so, the way I drive.
Some BMW models, perhaps all, calculate one mile driven as two miles if the engine is over 5000 revs, or if the engine is cold. It will count one mile driven as four miles, if you drive it over 5000 revs AND when cold. Therefore, you can reach a predetermined service mileage sooner or later depending on driving habits. The service lights will never allow 15k miles to pass before maintenance is required.
In regards to oil change intervals, I would not leave any oil in the car for
15k miles either and BMW does not allow it in this car. Nonetheless, some BMW enthusiasts have had their oil tested after running for 10k miles and found the oil in perfectly usable condition. This is synthetic oil.
I doubt either of our singular experiences with our BMWs are representative of BMW reliability as a whole. You can always find exceptions to reliability. My note was on regular scheduled maintenance, not reliability. Both cost money, if either are poor, but reliability also brought about a surprise.
The plastic radiators in my M3, Honda Accord, and Honda Odyssey, all failed. I replaced them myself, but the surprise was that the parts, ordered over the Internet, were cheapest for the BMW. I ordered a kit for the M3 that included a new radiator, water pump, aluminum thermostat housing (replacing plastic one on car), thermostat, and two fan belts. Price? $250. The radiators alone for the Hondas were almost that much. Synthetic oil for the M3, from the dealer was $5.50 a quart, $.50 a quart more than any synthetic at Wal-Mart. I'd expect the M3 brake discs to be hideously expensive, as they are different on all four corners and are not the same as any disc on any other BMW. But, on the Internet, they can be had for $57.47, and this is a Brembo disc. A Brembo disc for an ES300 is $51.84. There are cheaper discs for the ES300.
I will say that the savings over Internet ordered parts for BMW is huge, more so than for Lexus.
I ride motorcycles, me neighbor has I think the same bike you have, and have had many cars, and all can have problems, but I have to look at the overall picture, the experiences of many. I'd even buy another Honda since they are generally reliable, but the last two I have had are terrible. Exceptions.
That's less than what I had to pay for a RX 300. $150.00 at 5 & 10k miles. $500 at 15k -- $150 each at 20 and 25k and $750 at 30k. I traded at 30k when I found out what services cost at 60 & 75k. Operating costs for any Lexus will be higher than for a Honda.
Not much basis, I've heard rumors that the oil filters are a higher quality than Toyota. I don't have any proof of that. The Lexus oil change actually costs under $30, and they give a free loaner, so I don't mind using them for the oil change. Also, the oil changes will be recorded in the service database for my car, which could (possibly) help with resale.
No it won't. the MRS in these cars are mostly miles/cold-start based. Drive it gently or drive it like you stole it and it won't make a significant difference. Telling whether an oil is worn-out, is something that takes a pretty sophisticated lab - the little MRS's in cars today are just a gross approximation.
Phil, all I can say is that the difference in Lexus and BMW maintenance intervals is not due to technical differences in the cars. It is due to Lexus not having a free maintenance program and BMW having one. And because each company is deciding to make their own tradeoffs between a wide variety of factors that influence how their cars sell, their reputation in the marketplace, and how much money their dealers make on service business. It's an economic decision, not a technical one.
Certainly if you believe it following things "by the book", then the BMW might have a significant advantage.
Understood, but I doubt BMW is extending service intervals to the extent to compromise the durability and reliability of their cars. I would be more inclined to believe that Lexus is over maintaining their vehicles for more profit. After all, the car won't suffer for it.
Fact is, given the prices of parts on the BMW and service costs (low), one might dare say BMW makes their money more on the purchase price than servicing. I can not speak to all the technical differences that could and do make maintenance differences, but there are some that do make a difference. The M3 uses no timing belt, and that is a significant maintenance savings over an engine that does.
My concern there is that since the huge bulk of BMW's business is leased cars that are turned in at 3 or so years, BMW doesn't care about the durability and longevity.
Wait until you have VANOS problems or the shock towers rust out. All cars have problem areas - as you've pointed out, don't infer too much from limited data.
Lexus leases a lot of cars too. But the gist of this is correct - ALMOST BY DEFINITION, service intervals are a compromise. It is a sliding scale of maintenance costs vs. future replaceement/repair costs. Where the mfg sets the bar is completely arbitrary and driven by marketing more than engineering. It most definitely is a compromise.
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