Some ruminations on antifreeze

It doesn't take much of a USENET search to see all the badmouthing about Peak antifreeze, I guess mainly because the brand contains phospate. People say this and that, and repeat what others say without much thought.

I have visited the Peak site and they discuss these issues, and what they say makes sense to me at least. People blast Peak because of the phosphates, then turn right around and recommend distilled water for cooling sytems (which apparently pretty much removes any negative effect from the phospates). The Peak site claims that some European car makers say to avoid such antifreezes simply because Europe generally has much harder water than the U.S....makes sense to me.

Read it for yourself:

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Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this page
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about theirstandard product if it weren't fact anyway? And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used

50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in my cars with no problems.

-- Cliff

Reply to
Cliff Freeling
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Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate. It's incredible that you buy that "low mineral content in the USA vs. Europe" crap from Peak. Water is different all across the USA, as it is in Europe.

You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from Valvoline for about $9/gallon. Why screw around challenging what the engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right for $5/year ?

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Reply to
Jimmy

The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which is an abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it anyway I believe.

CaptainKrunch

Reply to
CaptainKrunch

? Silicon dioxide can be used as an abrasive, but a silicate is not silicon dioxide, nor is it a silicone, which is also not abrasive as your girlfriend may or may not be able to demonstrate to your satisfaction. As for silicate being "an abrasive" check out ordinary old sodium silicate... a liquid.

Reply to
L0nD0t.$t0we11

Dude, you're not listening.

So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems.

Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of business within a year.

-- Cliff

Reply to
Cliff Freeling

Havoline?

Have you used it in Hondas?

On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople.

I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my

1991 Civic.

I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this.

To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda.

I imagine they're fine for some car makes but not others.

Reply to
Caroline

Antifreeze compositions are usually based upon a thermodynamic antifreeze compound, primarily ethylene glycol or propylene glycol.

These will be the same no matter what prime source you get them from. (Yes, others are possible but are not in commercial use right now)

Ethylene glycol costs somewhat less than propylene glycol. Propylene glycol is a poorer thermodynamic antifreeze, but is somewhat better with respect to toxicity.

In the quantities that the blenders purchase the glycols, they get them pretty cheap. EG is in the range of $ .25 per pound or less.

The dye used costs nearly nothing.

The agent used to bitter the antifreeze can add a bit to the cost. About $0.30 per gallon.

The chemicals package is the next part.

Old green antifreeze had a mixture of (typically) mercaptobenzotriazole or tolyltriazole (corrosion inhibitor for brass) Borax...(pH buffer, corrosion inhibitor) Sodium silicate (corrosion inhibitor for aluminum -wasn't too good either) Caustic soda (added alkaline reserve, pH control) Polymer...( corrosion inhibitor for iron. dispersant for solids. scale inhibitor) Phosphate (buffer. Corrosion inhibitor for iron) Sodium nitrate (corrosion inhibitor for solder) Lubricants for the water pump were often not a part of the package. Dye Everybody had about the same mix, give or take. Whether you paid a bunch or a little, there wasn't too much difference.

There was some experimentation with floating polymer beads , intended to stop leaks and perhaps lubricate a bit, but in fact they ruined engines too. That stopped long ago.

The new orange stuff is a different chemistry. It is based on salts of dibasic carboxylic acids. It is probably more environmentally responsible overall. Reasonably effective stuff. Blenders who use this patented formulation buy it from the same company.

Now, if you were a seller, and could sell some nice orange crap at $9.00 per gallon, versus some green crap at $5.00 per gallon, both of which cost you about the same amount of money to make, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO??

As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place. Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know, what the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine.

None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims. Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim.

There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry.

Reply to
Larry Smith

My Corolla book does specify silicate and phosphate free coolant. The engine block, head, water pump, and radiator are aluminum. Last week I performed the first coolant change and bought the genuine Toyota coolant. Price was $12.95 for a gallon (a wee bit more than required). Prestone 5 yr ("orange") was $9.00. Prestone regular ("green") a couple bucks less. A few bucks for the right stuff .... spread over the next 50k miles is nothing. Nothing.

Reply to
Philip®

Damn Larry, you much be a chemist in the antifreeze field.

How true. All we can do is rely on observation and our experiences, and use a little intelligent reasoning.

Never a more accurate statement than this! Of course, corporate America just LOVES the hordes who buy into their sales hype.

-- Cliff

Reply to
Cliff Freeling

No, I've never owned a Honda, although they're good cars. I've used it in Mazdas, Toyotas, and MBs.

Water pumps, being mechanical devices, will always fail eventually, usually at around 100k from my experience. Maybe there's some truth to your claim, I don't know, but I've never heard that Prestone was bad for water pumps.

"Playing it safe" can cost unecessarily. Believe me, I know. I've been around the block a few times, and have done much of my own auto repairs/service for years, and I can tell you that much of what is "recommended" from service people (who usually don't do as thorough a job as I do myself), and even the manuals, is totally unnecessary.

-- Cliff

Reply to
Cliff Freeling

Amen. To read some of these owner's manuals, you'd swear that Honda or Toyota aluminum atoms follow completely different laws of physics and chemistry than Ford or Chrysler aluminum atoms.

Use the over-priced factory spooge through the warranty, then use a proven formula afterward. And don't use Dex-Cool in ANYTHING except a GM that calls for it and also has a good warranty in place.... and keep your fingers crossed too :-)

Reply to
Steve

"Cliff Freeling" wrote

snip

I agree and have similar experience. (I am an amateur home mechanic for very basic car maintenance, like pretty much everything listed in the car's suggested maintenance schedule.) I too loathe unnecessarily enriching corporate America. E.g. I sure as heck don't change my oil every 3000 miles (anymore ;-) ). I'd rather give the savings to charity.

Yet I hope we agree sometimes one does get what one pays for. Using OEM anti-freeze might be one such instance, based on the many posts here on the subject that talk about specific problems people feel their Hondas have had when using NON-OEM anti-freeze, and the subsequent better performance when they switched to OEM. Some of the people I respect most (e.g. who don't bullshit, who don't push people around, and who admit their own mistakes over the years so as to help others) in the group have this view based on personal experience with their Hondas. I think I for one would be foolish to ignore it.

I appreciate your opinion. Barring further data, perhaps the Orange Dex is at least a middle ground between the green Prestone/Peak and the OEM stuff. I will keep the group posted... ;-)

Reply to
Caroline

You may be onto something! Sub molecular nano technology!

Reply to
Philip®

You were doing Ok, until you started off on this tangent. There is nothing wrong with using Dexcool in a modern engine and its arguably a better antifreeze with a much longer-life additive package. You do want a very good flush beforehand as there is some evidence of problems with the organize acid chemistry in Dexcool reacting poorly with the additive package in conventional ethylene glycol AF.

- Mark

Reply to
markjen

In alt.autos.porsche Cliff Freeling wrote: : It doesn't take much of a USENET search to see all the : badmouthing about Peak antifreeze, I guess mainly because : the brand contains phospate. People say this and that, : and repeat what others say without much thought.

: I have visited the Peak site and they discuss these issues, : and what they say makes sense to me at least. People blast : Peak because of the phosphates, then turn right around and : recommend distilled water for cooling sytems (which apparently : pretty much removes any negative effect from the phospates). : The Peak site claims that some European car makers say to avoid : such antifreezes simply because Europe generally has much harder : water than the U.S....makes sense to me.

: Read it for yourself:

formatting link
: Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this : page
formatting link
about their: standard product if it weren't fact anyway? : And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used : 50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in : my cars with no problems.

Well, if your refering to a watercooled porsche, there is a TSB that lists approved anti-freezes... in addition to the VW and Mercedes house brands, one of the Zerex made the list...

Check alldata.com for the TSB.

Is it worth saving $5 bucks to screw up a $5k motor?

Reply to
Chicago Paddling-Fishing

Dig deeper, the problems with DexCool are much more widespread than simple incompatibility with residues from older antifreeze. There have been reported problems with it in new-manufacture GM engines that NEVER HAD any other type antifreeze in them, and other problems reported in engines very meticulously flushed before conversion. If anyone, out of "environmental conscience" or for whatever reason, really is hell-bent on a new-formulation antifreeze I believe the G-05 formula used by Chrysler and Ford (and others) has a FAR better track record than DexCool.

Reply to
Steve

I believe such problems also occur all the time with conventional "green" AF's, the introduction of Dexcool just was a convenient whipping boy for the types of cooling system problems that occur in cars all thetime. But neither of us have hard data, so not worth taking further.

- Mark

Reply to
markjen

I've seen problems with cooling systems of all types, but I never saw green EG antifreeze turn to brown mush the consistency of mud.

Reply to
Steve

You realize that Dexcool is almost all EG also, don't you? The only difference between conventional EG and Dexcool is an organic acid corrosion inhibitor package instead of the typical phosphate, silicate corrosion inhibitor package. I don't see any mechanism where a slightly different corrosion inhibitor package could take 8-qts of coolant and turn it into mud.

Just like oil, AF's are a huge source or urban legend mythology.

- Mark

Reply to
markjen

Sorry, you're wrong. There is hard data. *GM* admits this in a variety of FACTORY bulletins concerning issues with contamination from solder flash, factory sealers, and even contamination from simple air in the systems. Aside from the factory issues that they own up to, they claim that the "air in the system" problem is poor maintenance on the part of owners who let the coolant level get too low. Probably true, but I've never see that problem with any other anti-freeze. FWIW, the problems appear to be with DEXcool/Havoline only, not all carbo organic acid products. YMMV. Use at your own risk.

Also, folks here seem to be grouping anti-freeze into only two categories. There are actually 3 or 4 major categories. One is the EG w/high silicate products that are not recommended (by most manufacturers) in any recent vehicle. Next are the EG Hybrid Organic Acid Technology products like Valvoline G05. These are recommended by Ford, Chrysler/Damlier, and some European manufacturers. They contain low (not no) silicate, and low or no phosphate. They are an easy conversion from EG products without a lot of contamination issues. Last are the Carbo Organic Acid products like Dexcool. These are no-silicate and no-phosphate but may have some problems (Dexcool definitely has problems). Conversion requires a serious flush and contamination is a major concern. There is a fourth category - the Nissan/Honda no silicate products. I haven't been able to find an MSDS on these so I can't tell you exactly what they are composed of. I suspect they are a HOAT but I don't know what the anti-corrosion package is.

Don't read a lot into actual colors, they are not that definitive.

Reply to
Jimmy

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