Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?

You can rant all you want, Elmo, but that's the way it's done. The best way to get these car dealers down is to let them know that you're talking seriously to one of their competitors. I've talked with many car buyers who've mastered this technique.

My local Lexus dealer wanted about $2,700 over invoice for my 2004 ES. I read on Edmunds that the best deals were going for $500 over invoice. When I offered him $500 over invoice he laughed at me.

I called another Lexus dealer about 50 miles away. He had one in stock and agreed to $500 over invoice. I called my local Lexus dealer and told him about the offer. He called me back in less than an hour after talking with the owner and matched the price. I never even visited the dealer 50 miles away, but I've would have gone there to buy the car if my local dealer didn't match the price.

LOL! This sounds like the dealers wrote it. You ought to be a car salesman. You've either got their bullshit down or you've bought into it.

I've yet to meet a car salesman who wasn't highly motivated to sell one more unit.

The fact is, they are glad to sell a car at cost because they live and die by the number of units sold. The number of units they get from the manufacturer is based on the number they sold in previous years.

In 1982, I bought a Pontiac Firebird for $50 UNDER invoice. The car didn't exist yet. It was ordered from the factory with my selected options including no radio. (I installed a custom high-end system.) That deal had their heads spinning. But they did it. They did it because I had another dealer that was willing to sell me the car for $50 over invoice.

I've got their bullshit down. It's not hard to get down.

Like I said, if you can get them to play by your rules, run with it. But don't expect that they'll want to touch that with a ten foot pole. They'll want YOU to play by THEIR rules.

If it doesn't make him any money, he'll ignore it and move on to the next potential sale.

But if you know *exactly* what their cost is for that car, taking all of that into account, and you offer them that, they'll tell you no.

In 1982, when I bought my Pontiac Firebird, I got a quote from a guy who called himself a car broker. He offered to sell me the car for $125 over invoice. When I asked him how he could do that, he explained to me that he works through the fleet manager at the dealerships. They sell to him at that price because (as I tried to explain to Elmo but he's just thick-headed and mistakenly thinks he knows everything) they know that, if they don't, he'll take his (volume) business down the street. And volume is the name of the game in dealership competition. The more units you sell, the less you pay for the cars.

I think the car brokers of today are leasing agents. These are independent agents that lease cars and set you up for delivery at the dealer as you described and like the car broker of 1982 offered to do for me..

So I couldn't tell what you thought overall, good or bad idea these guys?

The one I worked with in 1994 did very well for me.

If you can find a good one you can work with, great. You'll save yourself the stress of negotiating. What's that worth to ya?

Personally, I'm a do-it-yourselfer. I want to know the inside game, even though it's stressful.

It's hard work getting a dealer down to the right price. If it was easy, everyone would do it. They're in business to get you to pay the highest price for the car and make you glad you did. That's their job. When I've gotten them down to a reasonable price, they start to get philosophical about it. That's when you know you've won. They say stuff like, "oh, I wish it didn't have to be this way, maybe we should just have one price for the car", etc. That's when I remind them that it's their game. I just learned how to play it.

I've only bought two cars in the last 15 years, but here's what I learned.

Early 1990s experience with buyers agent: Ended up paying dealers cost + about 1.5%

Early 2000s experience on my own: Ended up paying dealers cost + about 2.5%, but part of the "deal" was the fact they gave me full trade in value for my car without knowing the full magnitude of the engine problems it had (heh!). But, I spent a good couple of hours in the dealership, conversing with people who were not within 30 points of my own IQ. So, ten years later if I measure my time in dollars, you can put twelve of these idiots in a room with me for an hour, I lecture them, and financially I would come out behind. So I want to minimize my face time with salespeople.

That's the main reason I'm asking about buyers agents.

When it comes to negotiating for a car, I would probably put street smarts ahead of book smarts.

What kind of car are you shopping for?

Undecided at the moment, but a lexus IS is definitely in the running.