Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a BMW?

There's something called a "patent." BMW engineered a good suspension and had the wisdom to file a patent (actually, dozen of them) for it.

Computer makers pay IBM a royalty fee for every PC made. IBM owns the patents and licenses them to clone makers. Apparently BMW chose not to.

"when Lexus decided to build a "3 series killer" which is the IS and came short"... well, not exactly.

The 3-series killer was supposed to be the GS300, but its soft suspension gave the GS "couch on rollers" handling. Never mind killing the 3-series, the GS couldn't even compete.

Toyota looked around in its arsenal and decided to bring the Toyota Altezza over here and gave it a straight-six engine. Sure it outhandles the 3-series (by a very slim margin,) but its bone-jarring ride is simply unacceptable in the luxury sports sedan segment.

Toyota's design philosophy is backwards. They are trying to take a sedan and turn in into a 3 series. BMW started with a tiny rally-racing type car(the 1600/2002) and built it into a nice sedan over the years.

The whole THING about BMW is the suspension and that their smaller models still handle the same as their older models(which were much lighter and smaller - no easy feat). Every 3 series they make has this as a primary design goal - that it must feel and handle like a small rally-racer, or as close as possible. The luxury feel is nice, but secondary.

Toyota would do far better if they, for instance, took the MR2 and made it into a sporty sedan.

Exactly. They don't know how to do the sport and luxury thing as well. They can build faster or better handling cars, but they just don't have that zip-zip light on its toes feel of the 3 series.

That's your opinion. I like the firm ride more than the ride of the

330i

Who was it who once said, "There are two classes of people who buy used BMWs - BMW mechanics, and those who want to be." Better they should just find a 12-year old Civic and tart it up.

-psmith

Look at the OLD Nissan/Datsun Bluebird and Cherry engines. Anything familiar? The OHV unit is almost an exact copy of the British Mini/MGB unit.... Why? They (Like BMW) made Austin cars under licence after WW2. The Nissan OHC (Bluebird &

280Z) engine! Copied from Mercedes with obvious changes

Yes they do and even if they don't copyright come into it.

I think that what a car LOOKS like has more to do with it than what the engineering is. Ford Escorts here in the UK along with Peugeot 20? & 30? + Honda etc. are bought because of looks and rally win success. The geeks then spend hundreds of pounds/dollers to actually make them go and handle like the race/rally cars when in fact given the total spend the M3 would be in easy reach. THe obsticle is the insurance. Bacic 1.1L ins and don't mention the mods lets them drive the thing until they run intp you or someone else then NO INSURANCE and you're buggered!

Oh no they don't!

IBM placed the "PC" in the public domain and the only thing they actually patented was the BIOS. Everything else was and still is "free" to play with. The only real thing the IBM did was to issue STANDARDS and because of these standars when I type A and send it to you -- you see A in exactly the same plase as I put it.

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen snipped-for-privacy@h-gee.co.uk snipped-for-privacy@bognor-bill.co.uk

Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

------------------------------------------------- Vyisder Asmeni Orsisarsis Asderisorsis. B.Cozderiz Vunarz PERORZ

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Bits from previous stuff---------------------------

As does all 18 - 25 year olds when they buy/accquire their first car. Remove stock wheels and put on alloys = 25MPH extra. Blacked out windows = 15mph, different lights = 10mph Oh! I forgot the super loud bass expander stereo system that can be heard in the next county/state = 50 mph or a shag twice a night with different girls.

Remember that EVERY car you buy from the maker is a compromise. It must carry all the folks that it has seats for, one must be able to listen to the radio etc. without having to twiddle with the volume control at every 5mph increment in speed. It must go around corners safely and at a reasonable acceptable speed for the road conditions and speed limits that apply in the country of sale.

If you want extra the you play afterwards but at what cost and what gain. Toyota gain small $$$ big gain. BMW mega $$$$ little gain as it's already been done!

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen snipped-for-privacy@h-gee.co.uk snipped-for-privacy@bognor-bill.co.uk

Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

------------------------------------------------- Vyisder Asmeni Orsisarsis Asderisorsis. B.Cozderiz Vunarz PERORZ

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Wusses. We all know REAL cars have back seats made for munchkins.

WHAT??? WHAT??? I can't hear you over my engine's roar at 5000 rpm. Refinement can be taken a bit to far. I like my cars to have a soul instead of being yet another droid.

i guess thats why that division is being phased out.

Isn't that the car company that gm decided to close...

Doesn't make you any less an idiot.

No, actually it's a bean counter decision. Too many car divisions producing the same car, just different nameplates and different dealers making a buck on the same boring junk!

Like the original guy said: If GM could get past the image, they'd have it made. The only Olds that waddles anymore is the 98 Regency, and it waddles because old people like cars that drive like motorboats.

But waddling is only ONE of the characteristics of the Olds 88 that I mentioned. I also listed quietness,power, smoothness of ride, durability, lower cost of replacement parts, roominess, corrosion resistance....

Please note that none of the above positive comments apply to GM small cars such as the Cavalier, Corsica, etc which are the products of the Roger Smith era at GM. (Remember the film "Roger and Me"?) I reserve my judgment on the Grand Am, Impala, Malibu etc, although they sure look good. But we'll see..

Based on my 40+ years of buying cars (and observing other people doing so)I reached the following conclusion: A very important factor in car selection is image. Car ownership has a lot to do with personal identity. Ask yourself this: will a person who went out on a limb and bought a Volvo (mainly because of advertisement about its safety features) ever admit that he or she could have spent that money more wisely by buying a more reliable domestic car at a much lower cost whose safety features are very adequate? Not on your life. Car makers know that a car is not a means of safely getting from point A to point B. Ir is a part of a person's precious identity. And they exploit it. And purchasers fall for it and make the venture profitable.

The Lexus es300 is a wonderful car. But not more so than the Olds 88.

A.Z.

They'd "have it made" with what? The traditional Olds is well known for waddling. Later GM products have been plagued with other issues, like piston slap before break-in is done and timing chains which wear themselves out on their covers. No thanks.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

When you say that the Lexus es300 is no more wonderful than the Olds 88 are you including reliability? "Wonderful" is a quality that the owner is privileged to define for him/herself. If a car requires many more repairs than another car, most people would have difficulty seeing it as equally wonderful.

Hi Folks

I've been reading about BMW, Toyota, Lexus and Olds/GM cars but spare a thought for ROVER (Woof Woof) Yes that Old British Company ROVER! Their cars hold the road, are comfortable, fairly economic (by US std anyway) and reasonably well put together.

However when the 800 model changed from the "boxy" Mk1 that was sold in the US as the OXFORD (I think) with the 2.5 & 2.7 Honda V6 engines to the more gracefull Mk1 (same 2.7 V6) things were removed like the trip computer and a few other toys.

However, the reliability of the electrical/electronic toys was always suspect and this weirdness carried over to the Mk2. When BMW bought ROVER in 1985 Honda pulled out and wouldn't supply any engines so the KV6 was quickly drafted in from the test bed to power the car - nice DOHC V6. Almost EVERY engine in the

800 range went BANG and was replaced by Rover/BMW on most (not all) cars.

The current KV6 is a really good engine but almost totally different from the original test engine fitted to the last of the 800 series. The 800 was replaced by the 75 jello mould BMW developed "5" series competitor 75 which seems a nice car even if Bloody Ugly as is the S type and X type Jag.

If one was to visit the snipped-for-privacy@Yahoogroups.com or snipped-for-privacy@yahoogroups.com (have to join first but don't say you just wanted a laugh) you will see what I mean.

Image is the thing and so is comfort.

I would rather have a big, comfortable, well handling car than a point and squirt shoe box.

But then that's me.

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen snipped-for-privacy@h-gee.co.uk snipped-for-privacy@bognor-bill.co.uk

Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

------------------------------------------------- Vyisder Asmeni Orsisarsis Asderisorsis. B.Cozderiz Vunarz PERORZ

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Hi Folks

I've been reading about BMW, Toyota, Lexus and Olds/GM cars but spare a thought for ROVER (Woof Woof) Yes that Old British Company ROVER! Their cars hold the road, are comfortable, fairly economic (by US std anyway) and reasonably well put together.

However when the 800 model changed from the "boxy" Mk1 that was sold in the US as the OXFORD (I think) with the 2.5 & 2.7 Honda V6 engines to the more gracefull Mk1 (same 2.7 V6) things were removed like the trip computer and a few other toys.

However, the reliability of the electrical/electronic toys was always suspect and this weirdness carried over to the Mk2. When BMW bought ROVER in 1985 Honda pulled out and wouldn't supply any engines so the KV6 was quickly drafted in from the test bed to power the car - nice DOHC V6. Almost EVERY engine in the

800 range went BANG and was replaced by Rover/BMW on most (not all) cars.

The current KV6 is a really good engine but almost totally different from the original test engine fitted to the last of the 800 series. The 800 was replaced by the 75 jello mould BMW developed "5" series competitor 75 which seems a nice car even if Bloody Ugly as is the S type and X type Jag.

If one was to visit the snipped-for-privacy@Yahoogroups.com or snipped-for-privacy@yahoogroups.com (have to join first but don't say you just wanted a laugh) you will see what I mean.

Image is the thing and so is comfort.

I would rather have a big, comfortable, well handling car than a point and squirt shoe box.

But then that's me.

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen snipped-for-privacy@h-gee.co.uk snipped-for-privacy@bognor-bill.co.uk

Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

------------------------------------------------- Vyisder Asmeni Orsisarsis Asderisorsis. B.Cozderiz Vunarz PERORZ

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