Car battery jumper packs

[...]

ISTR they never had one, certainly not on any of the five I've owned, although I think an after-market conversion was available.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan
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Where would you put it?

Reply to
Clive George

Pretty sure they did. You had to approach it through the nearside wheel arch with the steering on full lock.

Let me see.....

Nope, I'm talking bollocks. ;-) Didn't realise it was an aftermarket kit.

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Tim

Reply to
Tim+

I saw it for a moment, and then it wanted me to join Photobucket and create an account.

No thanks.

Reply to
Davey

Dunno why, I didn't have to.

Tim

Reply to
Tim+

Put what?

The dog went on the end of the crankshaft, in place of the pulley-securing nut. You then turned the steering on full left lock, and engaged the starting handle via a hole in the inner wing.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

Did the Anglia 105E have a crank?

Reply to
Graham T

It worked ok just now. Maybe I 'moused-over' something the first time, and prompted the pop-up.

Reply to
Davey

And hence the introduction of 6V coils and starter solenoid switched ballast resistors etc. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

I'd say long enough to make a tow rope if you (intentionally) allow a SLI battery to get so low as it won't turn an engine over. ;-)

Of course, however, I though we were just talking about whatever they were and then taking a battery to a sufficiently low level that it couldn't start the car (when previously it would).

Again, it was your threshold. ;-)

All I think we were saying is that it probably isn't a good idea to intentionally (on a good battery) take it to a sufficiently low level of charge that it wouldn't then turn said engine over as that same level was probably below the safe depth of discharge for that type of battery?

Like, if I found my car wouldn't start after the typical number of turns plus maybe a couple of seconds, I wouldn't keep turning it over till it stopped cranking because I'd probably take the battery below it's designed duty cycle.

Now, of course there are bound to be occasions where most of us would take it (a good battery) to that point in the vague hope that it will actually start. ;-) [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] The tired old battery in the 1.4i Astra would generally spin it over fast enough for it to start very quickly but every so often it wouldn't fire up quickly (could have been a bad connection to the coil as I think cleaning that fixed it a couple of times when it didn't start at all) but would typically eventually start, just as you though that was the lot (the next turn of the key would just get you the solenoid buzz). ;-)

p.s. The fastest starting car was the old Rover 218SD, once you gave the heater coils their time, winter or summer it didn't seem to need more than half a rev! ;-)

Reply to
T i m

My MM Vans and Mums MM saloon all had them and they were used now and again (only by me). The only reg I remember was a 'B' - 1964 so hardly 'late'. ;-)

It's funny that some of my motorcycles that could have had a kick start, didn't (don't), like the CB250 Nighthawk (although I think it might still in The States). Nor does the Messerschmitt KR200.

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

Trick with an 850 Mini was to jack up one front wheel, put it in top gear, and turn the wheel by hand. In good nick would start easily. Never tried it with anything bigger.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

I did see my brother do that once, but it looked rather dangerous.

Reply to
MrCheerful
[...]

*You* are saying that; I disagree!

To do that once, and then re-charge the battery within 24 hours or so would have no measurable effect on the life of the battery.

Deep discharge is only an issue if the battery is left long enough for sulphation to start. Look at the number of people who leave their lights on, then need a jump start. Some numb-skulls do this multiple times, yet are not forever needing to replace their batteries. VW cars with perimeter alarms can discharge their batteries below the ability to start the car during a two week period; again, they do not need frequent battery replacement.

I reiterate - deep discharge is only an issue for batteries that are left in this state for extended periods.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

*We* (at least Graham and I) are saying that and you are welcome to disagree (that's what makes a discussion group of course). ;-)

'No measurable effect outside the lab', possibly but it will have a measurable effect. Sulphation starts quite quickly and with (therefore) have an effect on the functionality of the battery (all be it small and possibly un measurable for most).

Yes, which will start to happen immediately the battery is left in anywhere near a discharged state.

But we / I'm not saying that this will kill the battery instantly and completely, I was saying that to do such intentionally and on a good batter for the purposes of testing a jump starter solution wasn't a 'good idea'.

When were considering the Ibiza for step daughter a while back it was left in my mates car park for maybe 6 weeks. When I went to start it the battery was flat (just ignition lights) and so I used my jump starter to start it again (which it did instantly). After running it (around the car park) for maybe 30 mins we parked it up and 2 days later it needed the jumper pack again. I finally swapped the battery for one I took out of the Astra a few years ago and it's been running fine with that ever since. The Ibiza was also used daily till it was taken to my mate but may have had (or developed when left) an intermittent fault.

1) The need for replacement under those conditions can be a function of the battery chemistry. Calcium batteries are far more resistant to Sulphation so will suffer less from that when left in an over discharged state. My Kitcar has one and was left to go completely flat (faulty alarm) for possibly a month but recovered with a long bench charge and is still ok (even when left) some years later. 2) As I said above, because allowing a battery to discharge below it's designed threshold 'will' allow sulphation to start but the impact of that is a function of just how bad the Sulphation gets and if it can be reversed in use.

Yes, 'Soft sulphation' (that which occurs in the short term) can normally be reversed if the battery is charged fully for long enough. If left too long it becomes 'hard sulphation' and not usually considered reversible.

All that said, I still wouldn't 'recommend' anyone test a jump start solution by over discharging their daily car battery to the level you suggested.

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"Battery problems are claimed in de-sulphation advertisements to be the number-one cause of automobile breakdowns and 85% of battery failures are claimed to be caused by sulphation."

So, if that many result in breakdowns, how many suffer damage but not cause breakdown (and you may consider to be 'fine' but are actually shortening the life of the battery).

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"SLI batteries (starting, lighting, ignition; i.e., car batteries) suffer most deterioration because vehicles normally stand unused for relatively long periods of time."

The suggestion above might be that there may be a high risk of (detrimental) sulphation in cars 'under normal circumstances'. eg, Even cars that are driven every day are still typically left unused overnight. If the background load on the battery is such then the battery could end up left in a 'less than ideal' state (100% charged) for a reasonable period.

So, no one is saying that doing what you suggested is going to kill the battery instantly or even that it will have a 'noticeable impact', but who would ever get to find out that that 'one off' over discharge cost them a battery that only lasted 47 rather than 48 months or that it was only 60% of marked capacity and not 65% after the same period?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. All this has reminded me that I now have enough deal lead acid batteries (mostly (hard) sulphated but looking like new) to take a run to the Scrap Metals place. ;-)

Reply to
T i m

Worth about 3 quid each at the moment.

A customer let their battery go absolutely dead flat for a couple of days (lights left on), I jump started the car and took it for a twenty minute drive, I had expected that would revive it, but no, it barely accepted anything, so I declared the battery as dead and put a new one on. Later I put the dead battery on to a modern charger with desulphation mode and two days later it was as good as new, even tested as perfectly good on one of those new fangled electronic battery condition testers. I am still using the battery in my jump start pack, still seems good a year on.

Reply to
MrCheerful

Hmm, still better than the 50p each they went to a while back.

And considering what a good alternator could put out (for 20 mins) etc.

Ok.

It may have still only / mainly been the soft sulphation then and so

*should* typically be recoverable with a suitable charger / long / deep enough charge.

That is a good test (long periods of no use).

Since getting the semi-fancy capacity tester (combined with a DMM and high discharge rate tester) I have been able to get rid of several of the batteries that may have been use.

It seems that when a neighbour or a family member needs a battery urgently I can often find one that fits ... when *I* need one however ... ;-(

I really pains me to pull a battery from say a UPS or vehicle, that is dead but still looks like new (including no bulging of the casing, indicating sulphation). ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

OK, so in the situation where you only have one vehicle, one battery, no raft of test equipment, and a jumper pack that you want to ensure will start the car in an emergency, what would you do?

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

Any port in a storm. But if it fell off the jack at idle in top gear it wouldn't go far. ;-)

It's also an easy way to set the tappets. If you don't have the space to move the car back and forwards.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Ah, now that is a good question. ;-)

I think the answer is 'not over discharge my good battery' ... and hope the jumper pack did what it said on the tin ...

Now, if you had a car where the battery had already been left to go flat previously then I guess the / any damage had already been done then your solution might be 'ok'?

But it's no different (in my mind) than me sticking a spike into my good tyre to see if the tyre sealant works? Perfectly valid experiment of course, just not one I'd want to do without good reason (like I was going on an expedition and wanted to be sure). ;-)

Also ...

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I have this dilemma with the semi-traction battery I use with my electric outboard. At 50% discharge depth it's supposed to be good for

1000 cycles whereas at 100% it drops by over *500* cycles. And I believe that's 100% discharge 'to the lowest acceptable limit' (say 10.8V), not 100% discharge.

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Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

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