Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians

Probably just needing a software update. Sounds like a case of idle undershoot- the engine starts, but doesn't quite reach idle speed, but instead reaches a point whereby injection is just late enough to keep the engine running, but to early to produce any effective power to accelerate the engine to proper idle speed. Most engines will usually cut out again after a few seconds, or get upto idle, but obviously your's hits the perfect balance point.

Causes can be too slow a cranking speed (low battery, weak starter motor), or just releasing the key just a bit too soon. Chances are there's an update for the PCM, that improves idle undershoot detection, and tries to remedy it.

Sounds about the right response from Ford dealers.

One thing you can be sure about though, they will give it a good long test drive, trying to remove as much tread as possible from the front tyres during the process.

They think they are doing you a favour by looking at your car, under warrantee or not !

I am not impressed either, great cars serviced and repaired by useless dealers who do not care.

Mike

errr well paid technician ? I must have missed that part when I picked my wage packet up today !!!! the garage may get the £50+ an hour us technicians certainly don't !!! but then we are all not aircraft engineers.

We go back to basics, troubleshoot on

we don't have the luxury of replacing bits willy nilly, any bits we order nowadays tend to be special order or come in sealed packets, so once opened they are non returnable & the customer certainly isn't going to pay for parts they didn't need.

unfortunately I know how frustrating it can be for yourself & us if a code isn't present or showing a fault at the time of presentation,

In message , reg writes

I've seen job adverts for technicians at main dealerships where the salary has been equal or greater than paid to some aircraft engineers. I'm not saying that's the case for all vehicle technicians.

That would obviously be a concern of the customer where the customer was paying for the work carried out but in this case the car is covered by warranty and I just want it fixed. The cost is not my concern. I know that sounds selfish but its the reality of the situation.

Absolutely, but the dealership has witnessed the car demonstrating the fault. There is no doubt that it has a fault and I won't accept any excuses about a lack of fault code. The fault exists and I want it fixed.

In message , moray writes

I've always thought that the cranking speed was quite slow compared to other diesels I've owned. I'll certainly mention that. I would have thought that a PCM update would be one of the first things the garage would carry out (easy fix). I was rather hoping that other cases of this problem would have come to light over the past couple of years and perhaps a TSB might have been issued.

Hia Paul,

While unrelated, I am a TV engineer (qualified to degree level) but intermittent faults are the same, especally with regard to electronics, but the maths and science are the same in electrical and mechanical systems at that level of engineering. An intermittent fault is very frustrating, and will often will not show up on diagnostics, only while the problem is present. I know nothing about cars suffice what I have said, but the problems are the same. I think that it is very shortcoming of the company that they only have one person trained to use diagnostics. I my job, we all do the same training courses. It's the're problem, not yours.

It seems to me, that they are incompedent. PS I work with an EX RAF technician!

Regards

Rodders

Hmmm. Tricky one. As Moray has said, first check for any software updates or TSB's that are available and address idling issues. Also have them check the wiring to the PPS, or do it yourself.

The black smoke sounds a different issue, perhaps an EGR one, but without seeing the car it's difficult to say without seeing the symptoms it is producing.

Normally the ECU is programmed such that if base idle rpms arent reached within so many crank rotations of start up, a cut out is effected- the engine cuts out just as it does if you pull rpms down by loading it, but it will restart fine and run ok as long as rpm reaches the target.

Tim..

As others have suggested and as a good dealership should do, updating the ECU software ought to be done anyway when the car is in the dealer for any work, diagnostics or not.

On a similar note, part of the issue is the dealer. A good dealer can really help the customer when a car isn't quite right, but stubbornly refuses to demonstrate the fault when you take it to the dealer.

When Kermy's TMAP sensor died, I had a pretty good idea what the problem was (mostly because the ECU reported that the TMAP had died, I'd followed through various flow charts to check other issues such as vacuum leaks, which can cause the same error).

The lad was close to undriveable so driving the 100 miles to my preferred Ford dealership wasn't an option. The closest Ford dealer in York were moderately useful but refused to accept that the customer could possibly have read the fault code, so wanted the diagnostic charge to tell me what I'd already told them.

Instead, I took the Ka to a slightly further dealer, where they had a much more pragmatic approach to diagnostics. Shoot, even the Honda dealer in York will rebate the diagnostic fee if you have the work done there.

The long and the short of the above... change the dealer?

In message , Tim.. writes

The black smoke is only there when it doesn't start properly. When the engine has started properly, its faultless in every other respect. I'm quite impressed by its power delivery.

I do feel that its not getting enough of a crank from the starter. However it never does it from cold. It always does it when the engine has been running and has been switched off for 5-10 minutes. When the fault does occur, I have to turn the engine off again. It will often repeat the fault for the next 6-8 start attempts but I've now found that if I give it about half a boot of throttle when turning it over, it will fire up to 1500 rpm before settling down to normal idle speed.

There's a fair bit of research (and I think a fair bit of money kicking about if you know the right people to talk to and the right wording for your subjects) into the reduction of national infrastructure vulnerabilities along those lines. I believe police cars are designedly[1] protected against EMP attack.

[1] Lousy word, wrong time of night after wrong kind of day

I'm slowly becoming a luddite, the improvement of a modern computer controled ignition system over a well designed suck-squeeze-bang-blow dizzy cap design is so marginal that I think a proper energy-audit would negate the eco-friendliness of the electronic route. Especially once modular replacement as a standard method of repair is included.

The level of intrinsic stupidity in the creation of national policies is only just about high enough to apply occam's razor to the idea of ulterior motives. In fact, I see it as borderline.

I'll spare you my irritation at the toxic con of catalytic converters over proper modern lean-burn designs, with or without the fancy electronics iirc.

Dave J.

Utter crap. I diagnosed a faulty ICV valve on a Mitsi without needing a laptop to tell me what it was.

I can't remember the last time I had to replace any of the electronic bits, I've got bitter memories of condensors & points.

You may have been lucky, maybe not.

What's needed is a blend of abilities, rather than "computer says no" or fault-finding without reference to the ECU's stored codes and freeze frame data.

I'll go with you there, most of what I've seen seems to be over 10 years mtbf, but when they do go, it's got just slightly more environmental cost than the replacement of a 50p cap or a pair of contacts. Plus, you can't just look at it, fiddle a bit, and fix it. You now need loads *more* high tec tat just to diagnose the perishing thing.

It's like comparisons between LPs and CDs. People who reckon LPs give

*better* fidelity than a modern digitally mastered CD are IMO being irrational. The beauty of analogue records was that the quality was near as dammit comparable to the modern high tech stuff, but with nothing more complicated than a needle, a coil or two and an amp. The improvement wasn't (again IMnsHO) not really worth the multiple orders of magnitude increase in complexity.

A well designed lean burn engine, with an old fashioned distributor/coil setup is well comparable, in efficiency and pollution emission, to a multiple-computer, unfixable geeks heaven of an electronic design.

Yet the simple version comes without the immense pollution overhead that goes with everything from mining the raw semiconductor materials to designing and building the finished product.

Dunno if you'll see what I mean, certainly not absolutely sure I'm right. My apologies for the topic drift anyhow.

Plus, I'm 'here' for an urgent question about airbags. Posted else-thread.

Dave J.

Not really. The symptoms are typical for a knackered ICV. Which is kind of my point.

I saw TV programme two or three years ago where they actually simulated the effect of a large EMP on a computer, it certainly didn't like it! I think I'd be right in saying that the military clung onto valved communication equipment for a long time after a everyone else had abandoned it, for that very reason. BTW what about military vehicles, does anyone know if they all now use electronic management control systems, or do they still tend to stick with old fashioned electromechanical devices?

For that issue. But not all problems are so easily solved.

The Ka's failed TMAP didn't seem like rocket science. Computer says TMAP failure. But I still checked for a vacuum leak nevertheless...

In message , Paul Giverin writes

Just as a follow up:- the car went in to the dealer today. As expected... no fault codes present. Technician phoned Ford who said that the problem is known to them. They have provided an updated PCM which they say will make the problem "less likely" but they say that the real problem is owners not keeping the starter motor engaged long enough. Utter bollox in my case but we will see if the PCM update makes any difference.

Won't over-engaging the starter cause problems with the teeth on the starter gear. I'm thinking of continuing to crank the engine after it has "caught."

-- Don