OBD diagnostics thoughts / questions (long).

Hi all and HNY.

Due to circumstances etc I haven't really had chance to do anything re our miscreant 2004 1.6 Meriva A and it's semi-random non starting and crazy instruments.

So (and with the list of things I still will be checking still sitting here) could anyone shed any light on what I have been seeing with my OBD reader (OpCom) please.

Ok, simply symptom 1). after about 5 mins / 3 miles from cold the ignition light comes (and stays) on (but it's still charging ok) and typically the temp, revs and speedo will either die completely or start running intermittently. All other instruments are always fine.

At the same time the same values (coolant temp, engine revs and road speed) when seen on the ECU will be solid and constant.

So (trying to get my head round this) would I be at that point 'talking' to the logics of the ECU and it is determining these parameters are what it is experiencing and it *thinks* it is successfully outputting to (possibly amongst others) the instrument cluster?

So, if solid on the ECU, can we assume that any / all of the inputs that relate to those particular outputs (and I'm guessing they may be massaged by the ECU at some point ... taking pulses from an ABS sensor and converting that frequency into the equivalent MPH by knowing the rolling diameter / circumference of the road wheel etc) are ok?

So, the bit I'm not too sure about is how said signals are then fed to the instruments? I have pulled the plugs from the ECU and seen ~128 pins (between them) that obviously do something but are these particular outputs (and any other that would be pertinent between engine and instruments) fed individually or over some form of (CAN?) bus?

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I ask because not only do the temp, revs and speed disappear from the instruments themselves, they also disappear from the diagnostic view of the instruments from the OpCom (again, assuming the OBD port is 'talking' to some intelligent interface within the instrument cluster itself).

Now, the / first thought would be 'the classic (Corsa C) instrument connector problem but if after watching these instruments mainly off over a 50 mile trip, I can then immediately run the output tests on the instrument cluster and it has always been fine (I can turn on all the tell tails or move the temp, revs and speedo to any position I like and they stay there).

So, is there a different communication path from the OBD port that goes straight to the instruments (and hence why they work all the time) and a *different / intermittent* path from ECU to instruments and somewhere/how *that* path is now intermittent?

Given the semi-predictable nature of said intermittency (it's always fine from cold and rarely fine once warmed up etc), is this more likely to be a connection / electronics fault in the ECU than any issue with the loom or connectors etc?

What might put a slightly different emphasis on that last bit is that I think that pulling and pushing 'something' around the ECU connectors seems to have an impact on this instrument fault. I can't really tell if it's where the loom joins the plug, the plug in the socket (all pins clean and dry) or where the socket joins the PCB etc (if that could be moved by what I am doing on the outside).

I ask all the above because to check say the instrument cluster connector I'd have to do it in the road and it's not been particularly dry (or warm) out there of late. Plus I can actually use the thing as long as I don't try to restart it when it's tepid. [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] I have noticed the last couple of times it hasn't started that it did actually fire up for about 1 second before dying. It has been suggested elsewhere that when it is in that condition (not one I typically try to get it into of course) to check the measuring blocks for the rpm and fuel relay on the ECU via OpCom.
Reply to
T i m
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Couldn't be anything weird like a dying battery, possible with a partial internal crack that may be intermittently dropping its voltage under load due to vibration?

Can't help with any of the OBD stuff but it might be worth getting the battery tested or trying another one.

Tim

Reply to
Tim+

On 02/01/14 12:46, T i m wrote: > [1] I have noticed the last couple of times it hasn't started that it > did actually fire up for about 1 second before dying.

Could that be an immobiliser not reading a key? Do you get any codes stored in that state?

Reply to
Chris Bartram

Well it could I guess but it started these problems with the old battery and is now running a brand new one. It spins over for ages.

I have an update though. It was possible the spray of EasyStart allowed it to start after not starting (unusual from cold) but after using it this afternoon (to hot) it wouldn't restart and whilst the EasyStart seemed to suggest there was a spark (it did at least try to fire up) it didn't run. Left for an hour or two then it started on the button.

I think there may be a clue (to those who know their stuff) in that it often runs for a second or two before dying and then not restarting.

The only reason for it not starting seems to be the fuel pump not being activated whilst trying to start but directly after, running the diagnostic output tests you can force the fuel pump to spin up.

Not knowing what is immobilised when the car is 'immobilised (fuel, ignition or both) it could just be that it's not a 'fault' as such around the fuel pump but those things required to be in place to enable it in the first place?

I see ~230 rpm on the ECU whilst I'm cranking it over so I'm assuming the crank sensor is ok?

Now, if I have an ECU connector / ECU fault and one of the affected outputs is the drive to the fuel pump, maybe it would still fire up when driven from the OBD 'output tests'?

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 20:44:19 +0000, Chris Bartram wrote:

It could be as I have no idea what the immobiliser actually immobilises on that car Chris, however I don't think it's the key as we have repeatedly seen the same issue with both keys now.

Yes, but few seem to point towards any that points towards the immobiliser / security directly, just a suggestion that some of the intelligent bits (BCM / ECU) aren't talking to each other?

These have been there on and off since the beginning (and possibly before we started getting the non starting problem).

P1615 - Wrong Vehicle ID from Body Control Module (00) - Present

P1616 - Wrong Vehicle ID from Instrument Control Module (00) - Present

U2107 - CAN-Bus no Communication with Body Control Module (00) - Present

This is the output of the ECU when I'm turning the engine over and it won't start: (you can see the Fuel pump relay 'inactive' near the top).

Cheers, T i m

Battery Voltage,10.9 V Main Relay,Active Fuel Pump Relay,Inactive APP Sensor 1 (Accelerator Pedal Position),0.96 V APP Sensor 2 (Accelerator Pedal Position),0.47 V Calculated Pedal Position,0 % APP at Idle Position (Accelerator Pedal Position),Active TP Sensor 1 (Throttle Position),1.12 V TP Sensor 2 (Throttle Position),3.88 V Calculated Throttle Position,20 % Throttle Position,Idle Engine Speed,235 RPM MAP Sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure),4.56 V MAP Sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure),96 kPa Coolant Temperature,2.48 V Coolant Temperature,9 °C Intake Air Temperature,4.14 V Intake Air Temperature,10 °C Tank Sensor,4.39 V Tank Sensor,12 L Oil Pressure,Normal A/C Information Switch (Air Conditioning),Inactive A/C Pressure (Air Conditioning),0.6 V A/C Pressure (Air Conditioning),380 kPa Brake Switch 1,Inactive Brake Switch 2,Inactive Clutch Switch,Not Programmed Vehicle Speed,0 km/h Cruise Control Tip Switch,Not Programmed Cruise Control,Not Programmed Vehicle Speed in Cruise Control Range,Not Programmed EGR Valve (Exhaust-Gas Recirculation),Inactive EGR Position Command (Exhaust- Gas Recirculation),0 % EGR Position Feedback (Exhaust Gas Recirculation),5.00 V Fuel Tank Ventilation Valve,0 % Knock Control,Inactive B1S1 O2 Sensor Heater (Bank 1 Sensor 1),Inactive B1S1 O2 Sensor (Bank 1 Sensor 1),468 mV B1S1 Air/Fuel Ratio (Bank 1 Sensor 1),Rich B1S2 O2 Sensor Heater (Bank 1 Sensor 2),Inactive B1S2 O2 Sensor (Bank 1 Sensor 2),447 mV B1S2 Air/Fuel Ratio (Bank 1 Sensor 2),Lean O2 Sensor Loop,Open B1 Long Term Fuel Trim (Bank 1),4 B1 Short Term Fuel Trim (Bank 1),0 A/C Cutoff Mode (Air Conditioning),System OK A/C Relay (Air Conditioning),Inactive Fan Relay 1,Inactive Fan Relay 2,Inactive Fan Relay 3,Inactive Malfunction Indicator (MI),Off Service Vehicle Soon (SVS) Indicator,Blinking Oil Level,Normal Engine Oil Level Status,Okay Engine Speed,235 RPM Desired Idle Speed,1.500 RPM Idle Speed Offset,Cold Start Ignition Dwell Angle,3.9 ms Injector Time,0.0 ms Ignition Spark Angle,6.7 °CA Knock Retard Cylinder 1,1 °CA Knock Retard Cylinder 2,0 °CA Knock Retard Cylinder 3,0 °CA Knock Retard Cylinder 4,1 °CA Ignition Status,On 12V ETC Limp Home Mode (Electronic Throttle Control),Reduced Power Total Misfire,0 Dec. Fuel Cutoff (Deceleration),Active Fuel Tank Ventilation Valve,Inactive Immobiliser Function Programmed,- - - Security Wait Time,- - - BCM: Vehicle-ID is programmed (Body Control Module),- - - Instrument: Vehicle-ID is programmed,- - - BCM: Status of Vehicle-ID (Body Control Module),- - - Instrument: Status of Vehicle-ID,- - -

Reply to
T i m

I'm more familiar with VAG products I'm afraid. There's a reasonably common issue with the pickup coil around the ignition lock, which made me wonder.

Again, this is from VAG vehicles, but in those, the immobiliser is a function of the instrument panel, and the instrument panel is paired to the engine ECU, and therefore if the engine ECU can't talk to it, it won't start. I'm no expert, but I'm wondering if the CAN coonection to the panel is failing, assuming your Corsa is CAN. Is the instrument panel accessible while connected?

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Reply to
Chris Bartram

My brother had a similar issue, the car had to be towed to the main dealers so they could perform a diagnostic, the outcome was the systems had lost memory of each other, they reinistialised everything and it fired up first time.

Reply to
steve robinson

Next time it wont start, give the top of the dash above the instrument cluster a thump, then try again. I've known the connectors to push back on the cluster before now, usually giving strange gauge activity, but it's worth a try given part of the immob is in the cluster. A wad of foam behind the connector is the solution.

Tim.

Reply to
Tim..

No, understood and I'm currently open to any / all suggestions. ;-)

I have asked that question elsewhere and not sure I really got a definitive answer. I think the immobiliser is the block thing that bolts to the steering column but it's output may go though the instruments and / or body control module etc.

Yup, that seem to be how it is here as well.

I'm not sure from that link if our 2002 Corsa or 2004 Meriva are Can, or are 100% Can either. If I try to launch the OpCom OBD reader in 'CAN' mode it fails but I'm not sure if that says anything.

The think I'm having trouble getting past is that the fault seems to be thermally dependant and I'm not sure what 'intelligent modules outside the ECU (that is bolted on the end of the engine) would have such a predictable thermal cycle.

Start the car from cold (which it normally does fine) and you have no ignition light, and a rev counter (you can initially see and temp of course and if you are just parked up, no speed either). Then, without moving or touching a thing, after about 3-5 mins the ignition light comes on and stays on. Then, after a period of about 5 mins (and often as the ignition light comes on but not always) the rev counter will drop to zero, as *might* the temperature gauge, it it's showing anything at the time. Let it carry on running till the engine is hot and the temperature gauge and rev counter could well sit their perfectly fine, no matter what you bash or thump or do?

Yesterday we did two 25 mile legs. Starting off the first time it started on the button but faltered after a second or so. Then I tried again and it started and ran ok. The mentioned instruments when off pretty quickly and bounced on and off over the entire journey. Similar experience coming home later that day.

Whilst we were diving (quiet back streets) I got the daughter to use the OpCom to go into 'Instruments' > Tests and as soon as she did ignition light went out and then often stayed out after exiting the tests. The fact that it stayed off during that period suggested to me that the diagnostic link (at least) between the OBD port and the instruments must be sound, as were the instruments themselves (or the ignition light would have carried on coming on etc)?

And all the time the instruments are bouncing about like this, the same values as read out of the ECU are solid?

I think I need to talk to someone who actually went on the 2004 Meriva OBD course who know *exactly* how all these bits interact and who therefore might actually be able to shed some (more specific) light on it?

(And I know I haven't done some of the more basic / common things, like earths or dash connectors but I'm trying to learn what I can in the hope that it points to something I can do without crawling about under the car in the rain). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

I wish the fault would go 'hard' so that I could actually do something like that!

See, if these things aren't talking at all I'm guessing it wouldn't ever start at all and it does, especially from cold or hot. Not only does it start under those circumstances but once started, actually runs very well and has never stopped etc.

Now I think I've found that the reason it doesn't start when it doesn't is possibly because the fuel pump relay isn't being energised, and the main reason it isn't, the crank sensor is working at the time (I see an RPM count), the more likely other cause is that it's immobilised bit it appears there isn't any visual indication of that?

Again, (as I mentioned elsewhere), I'd like to get solid confirmation that the immobiliser 'just' cuts the feed to the fuel pump as it seems I've still got ignition at the time (it fires and dies and tries to fire with some Easy Start).

If it were straight mechanical things I'd be swapping them around already but with the cost of things like the ECU being so high and the the issue of getting them programmed, (only to find it wasn't the problem etc) is a right PITA.

That reminds me, I'm going to see if I can find a clean 2L Sierra Estate. I never had any issues like this with mine over 23 years and now I don't drive that much I can cope with the 25 mpg. At least it started EVERY time. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

Yeah, done that mate (trust me).

Ah, is it, I've been given different answers to that (were the immobiliser is).

Yea, as I have seen mention (for the Corsa C).

The funny thing was when driving along with the ignition light on and going into the diagnostics on the OBD reader for the instruments, the ignition light went out and stays out for the rest of the journey. As soon (but not always) as you exited the diagnostics the ignition light came back on. Now that would suggest to me (anyway) that here is at lest a good communications path from the OBD port to the instruments, if not anything else? If it uses the same connector for that and all the other things that are working perfectly (like ALL the other dash indicators and the fuel gauge etc), can it be the (assuming a single) connector?

I'm not suggesting for one second it isn't, and it won't cost anything to find out (given the right opportunity re the weather etc), bit it's more of a faff to do on the Meriva than the Corsa and a waste of time and effort if the symptoms (all things considered) don't point very much that way? If I don't find any other likely causes I will do it anyway of course. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

there are 6 Sierra estates on ebay at present, my choice would be the

4x4 one.
Reply to
Mrcheerful

I had a direct experience with an Audi TT (sorry not a Meriva).

Immobiliser in my car is a function of instrument cluster. Usually it would start and run fine, intermittently it would start, run for 1-2 secs and cut out. Once the immobiliser problem took place, it would only start and run for 1-2 secs until the battery was disconnected and reconnected again.

The instrument cluster has some Magnetti Spaghetti electronics which go bad over time. Other symptoms are erroneous readings from fuel/temp gauges, rev counter and mad backlighting effects on the LCD elements in the cluster.

I sent mine away to be repaired. It's still not quite right but the immobiliser doesn't misbehave and I have used the car is my daily hack for about 2 years now since it was repaired.

Reply to
Douglas Payne

As I believe it may be with this Meriva.

Hmm, sounds familiar ...

That's a coincidence (or not etc). One day when the car was left for a good few hours but still wouldn't restart, I also disconnected the battery for a few seconds and upon re-connecting and re-trying it started ok. I logged it in my mental list of 'things I have seen' in the hope it might help build a better picture.

;-)

Ok, well I've seen all except the backlighting as it doesn't have any LCD components.

Hmm. I think I am going to have to at least check the instrument cluster connector and it is suggested that similar faults can also be due to that (and not uncommon on such models).

The only thing that doesn't seem to fit with my particular scenario is that this intermittency doesn't seem to tie up with anything mechanical but more time or temperature initiated?

That's not to say some Magnetti Spaghetti in the instruments can't be 'warming up' of course (voltage regulators and the like) and or such 'heating' might happen to a h/r-connection ... ?

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

As the location that it has to be hit at is unknown you will have to disembowel the dash.

The instrument cluster will be plastic. It will be full of electronics that heat and cool every time the car is used. Stuff like plugs can jack themselves off the connector from thermal cycling. Add to that the likelihood of a few connector pins that supply the current to power the dash running a bit warmer and causing local warping.

Reply to
Peter Hill

I never managed to make a correleation between anything in particular and my starting fault. It seemed like it was more common in colder weather but it may have been my imagination. I bought the car very cheaply and was happy to drive around with a 10mm spanner handy to do the battery thing.

Good luck.

Reply to
Douglas Payne

It's funny how you can (initially at least) make associations where none actually exist (in the fullness of time).

I had the same thing with a Rover 218SD. It would (seemingly) randomly immobilise / lock / unlock itself. The least inconvenient self immobilisation (that I could always easily resolve with my Leatherman) what as we were about to drive off the IOW ferry and inconvenient self locking was when I was standing next to it and will all my keys hanging off the keys in the ignition. Luckily that Rover was actually a Honda and the first Honda key I borrowed from the motorcycle shop unlocked it. ;-)

The Sierra never had any of these problems of course (as it didn't have any such stuff). ;-)

Thanks ... I think a bit of that is needed. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

That's exactly what you get if the key isn't read too. We have a spare key for our Lupo that didn't take the programming, if you try to start with that, it runs for 1-2 sec. I think it logs a code too, though.

Reply to
Chris Bartram

Hmmm.

I think the last time it wouldn't start I checked on the OpCom (OBD reader) and from what I understood, it seemed happy with the current key.

Ah, ok, I'm pretty sure I haven't seen anything that is obvious that it is a immobiliser / security / key fault specifically (and it has happened with both our keys (not that that doesn't rule out both keys going faulty I suppose)).

However, I still agree / think this feels like an immobiliser fault, even if only because of some communication failing somewhere, rather than a component fault as such.

I've just checked back with the log from the body control module and noticed it does say there if it thinks the system is immobilised or not:

Remote Control Signal,Not Present Remote Key Battery Status,Okay Remote Key Status,Open Remote-Key 1 Status,Programmed Remote-Key 2 Status,Programmed Remote-Key 3 Status,Not Programmed Remote-Key 4 Status,Not Programmed Remote-Key 5 Status,Not Programmed Immobiliser Status,Inactive

(I don't know what was happening when I saved that log. I know now to check there when it won't start again as I've not seen anything that I understand to be an Immobilised light ob the dash).

More food for thought,. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

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