Re: Recently out of warranty car engine failure

[moved to uk.legal rather than uk.legal.moderated to allow crossposting with the car maintenance group]

In article , David Mahon writes

I have a 52 plate (December 2002) Vauxhall Astra 2.0 turbo (petrol) >convertible. It's 3.5 years old, has done 69,000 miles and has always >been serviced in accordance with the manufacturer's schedule by a main >dealer (the one it was bought from, by me, when it was brand new). > >The other day a light came on the dashboard and the engine became very >rough. I took it to the dealer. It's had a TECH2 test and a compression >test and the engine is currently stripped. Apparently one of the valves >is scored internally and it will need a new engine. They are waiting >for a field engineer from Vauxhall to come and see it on Monday - they >are going to ask for a contribution from them. The bill will run into >thousands! > >Should I expect this failure on what is, after all a relatively new >(just out of warranty) car? My previous cars have gone on to over >200,000 miles each. > >What rights do I have? I know that the warranty is only three years, >but I was told that the sale of goods act can protect me for up to six >years - would this apply here? > >If Vauxhall decide to offer a contribution (is this likely?) what kind >of contribution could I expect and is it possible to "haggle" with them >to get it higher?

Further to my engine problem, I have found out that the field engineer has been. The garage tells me that due to the age of the car (3.8 years) and the mileage (69,000) he says there is nothing he can do! It has a full (dealer) service history with cambelt changed at the right time, etc.

The fault (and I wrote it down this time) is:

Low compression on number 2 cylinder Top end problem Though to be a valve Presumed damage to piston

It was a bit wishy-washy, but it was what the receptionist said.

I also got some figures:

New engine £2980.21 Top end repair £2259.52

(I've already paid about £350 in labour)

They also suggested a new manifold (£895) as it has "a crack in it" but it's not blowing at present.

Should I just expect this? The garage has given me a number for Vauxhall so I can speak to them myself, and I am awaiting a callback from a manager tomorrow.

I've also got a quote from an independent Vauxhall Autosports place (Regal). They haven't seen the car, but they could do a complete top end rebuild with all new internals for £1800 and a new manifold for £200.

Similar (spec + mileage) cars are selling for around £9,000.

Advice please (legal and mechanical)!

My thoughts are to get it repaired (properly, but as cheaply as possible) and then to sell it, never to buy from Vauxhall again.

Reply to
David Mahon
Loading thread data ...

Can't help on the mechanical side.

As the car is out of warranty you will only be able to claim against the dealership that you got the car from. You will have to show that the car was not of satisfactory quality and/or reasonably fit for purpose at the time you bought it.

Subject to what the mechanics say, I think that this will be difficult to show - the car ran for nearly 70k miles after all. I don't fancy your chances of winning a case against the dealership unless this is a fault that should virtually never go wrong, and then only after hundreds of thousands of miles.

Reply to
Tommo

I'd look for a secondhand engine from a write off at a breakers. It might mean searching nationally but it would surely be cheaper than that quote.

Morse

Reply to
Morse

I would expect a contribution from Vauxhall as you have maintained the car as per the schedule

I would what know why if a Valve is scored internally, why it would need a complete new engine? Surely just a head & new valves

I would want a complete breakdown of the problem & possible cause from the engineer

The cracked manifold is a common problem across the range

Reply to
A C

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:02:29 +0100, I waved a wand and this message magically appears in front of David Mahon:

Why can't they just replace the valves?

Reply to
Alex Buell

Incompetance?

Profiteering?

Stupidity?

Reply to
Stuffed

You might get the garage (that supplied and maintained it) to contribute to the cost of repairs, if they do the work. That should reduce the cost down to the sort of price that you could get, shopping around.

Legally, the manufacturer is off the hook as it has done 69k and run for almost 4 years.

The garage is off the hook - unless you can show that they didn't follow correct maintenance procedures.

An independent engineer might be able to determine what led to the damage - eg over-speed, low oil level, low oil pressure, excessive temperature, weak/broken valve spring, inter-action of tolerances, etc. But it looks unlikely that he could provide clear proof of a design or manufacturing or servicing fault. The odds are that it is a combination of factors, that led to lubrication failure of the valve stem. "Just one of those things".

How much difference where you got it repaired would make to the value of the finished product - I leave to you. It makes a lot of difference, to me at least, whether they are rebuilding the present head or simply buying and fitting a replacement. The former I would get done at a company that specialises in such things.

Reply to
Palindr☻me

Where about in the country are you, I know a chap who was breaking one of these for spares.

Tom

Reply to
Tom Burton

In article , Tom Burton writes

Hampshire. Z20LET engine. There is absolutely no way I could do the work myself.

Reply to
David Mahon

I'd suggest it's the cylinder that's scored. A sored valve wouldn't have caused the problem. Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

So, new valves and guides, at least one new piston, possible con rod bent, rebore on at least one bore, a strip-down of the bottom end needed, probable damage to the head surface, so may need welding and reprofiling. As a DIY project, it may be do-able for less than £1000, a dealer would charge at least 10 hours to do this, so it isnt going to be cost effective. The best advice IMO would be to get another engine from a scrapyard.Probably less than £1000 to buy it. Alan.

Reply to
A.Lee

It's not unusual for garages to jump the gun and strip an engine without carrying out full diagnostic tests, and for engines to be replaced without curing the original fault which is later located and cured for a couple of quid unbeknown to the customer. Could also happen with human organ transplants for all I know...

J
Reply to
johntyers

In article , A C writes

I've asked them to put in writing what the problem was, and this is what I've received:

formatting link
The meat of which is:

MEC CHECK FAULT EML ON AND POOR RUNNING - CARRY OUT TECH TEST 4 TROUBLE CODES STORED FOR MISFIRE DETECTED - CARRY OUT COMPRESSION TEST FOUND LOW COMPRESSION ON NUMBER 2 - REMOVE CYLINDER HEAD AND INSPECT - FOUND NO. 2 PISTON DAMAGED - CAUSING THE LOW COMPRESSION - WILL REQUIRE EITHER TECH REPLACEMENT ENGINE OR REPAIR - COST TO REPLACE ENGINE 2980.21 - COST TO REPAIR 2259.52 - ALTHOUGH WE CANNOT GUARANTEE THIS REPAIR - PLEASE NOTE EXHAUST MANIFOLD IS CRACKED COST TO REPLACE 895.35

I'm still waiting for a manager from Vauxhall Customer Assistance (01582

427 200) to get back in touch with me.

My next door neighbour uses a friend of his to do work on his car. He used to work for Vauxhall before setting up his own garage. I asked my neighbour to get an idea of how much he would charge to fix an engine and the reply came back to me that he doesn't want to touch it until I've spoken directly with Vauxhall - a relatively new and well maintained / regularly serviced engine should not need replacing and he would expect them to offer a contribution.

Unfortunately, even if they offer 50%, it may still work out cheaper to get it fixed elsewhere.

If I have a reconditioned / second hand engine dropped in, do I have to alter details with the DVLA? Is this easy? Will it show up as a black mark against in future, when I come to sell the car?

For the legal people:

If Vauxhall offer nothing, given what the mechanic has said, how would I go about bringing a case in the small claims court? Is it the dealer I would have to sue rather than Vauxhall? Obviously if that was the case I would first go back to the dealer and try and get them to offer me a better deal first.

I am led to understand that going to the small claims court would be of little financial risk to myself should I loose - is that right? My hope would be that things would never get that far anyway and the talk of it would help persuade the dealer to make a contribution.

Is s small claim decided upon a balance of probabilities? Can the judge decide to award a percentage of the repair/replacement costs?

Would I have to arrange for an independent engineer to give an opinion or do both sides just give their own engineers report to the court? If and independent engineer is required, how is the engineer decided upon? Obviously, the ideal solution for me would be to get whoever gives the opinion to then fix the thing, as they will probably then give their opinion for free - but would this then make them non-independent?

Reply to
David Mahon

In article , David Mahon writes

I've just called another engine repair specialist (to get a quote) and he said would be absolutely fuming if he were to get such a fault on a car of this age/mileage/service history and it not be repaired by Vauxhall.

Maybe I really shouldn't just put up with this.

Reply to
David Mahon

The upshot of my problem, for anyone that is interested is that Vauxhall have refused any "goodwill" payments whatsoever for my 3.5 year old

70,000 mile engine failure. I've not really managed to get any information whatsoever as to why they think it may have happened.

I was faced with several options:

1) £2900 replacement engine from Vauxhall 2) £2200 repair by Vauxhall 3) £2800 replacement reconditioned elsewhere 4) £1800 repair elsewhere 5) Risk getting an independent assessment and going to court over it

Specialists (Regal and Courtney) quoted me a similar figure to Vauxhall for a replacement. A N Other engine repair shop would do it cheaper, but I had never heard of them and to keep it warranted I had to have it serviced by them every 6000 miles at a £135 a time (plus parts, and the time and petrol involved in taking it there and back). A 2nd hand engine was within 10% of the price of a reconditioned engine (and there were exceedingly few of them about - one in fact).

A local chap said he could repair it cheaper, but only because he charged half of what Vauxhall charge for labour. The parts would be the same. Nice bloke, advised against a repair and said a replacement would be better. Unfortunately, if it goes elsewhere, I have to pay Vauxhall £400 in labour already done.

So I'm stuck. Take it elsewhere and I cut my nose off to spite my face.

Vauxhall will be getting £2980.21 from me to replace the engine. I talked them into throwing in a service (which is due) as they're putting a new engine in anyway. And they'll give me a car until mine is ready. Then that's it. As soon as the warranty is nearly out on the replacement engine, I'll be buying something else.

Do I have to do anything about my V5 because of a new engine?

Reply to
David Mahon

Nearly =A3900 for an exhaust manifold, I am in the wrong business.

Kevin

Reply to
Kev

Still doesn't sound like the whole story. Was the piston burned or did a valve fall in? Makes little difference to the bill but whay can't they give you the full story? "Damaged" is such a wolly term.

Reply to
CWatters

I'm not convinced we know what happened yet. What was the nature of the piston damage? Is it visible on the crown? Was the piston burned? cracked? damaged by a valve? singing rule Britania? Any evidence of similar damage on the other pistons? Deposits all the right colour?

Could this have been a long term fuel/mixture/timing problem? Were any parts in the fuel/ignition/mixture/turbo replaced at a previous service? Are those bits still in warranty? Could they have failed or been installed incorrectly causing the problem?

Reply to
CWatters

CWatters ( snipped-for-privacy@turnersNOSPAMoak.plus.net) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

I wonder...

Is the exhaust manifold crack also on or around no 2?

I can't help but wonder if you might be on the right track with this one...

Timing's unlikely, since it'll be computerised and probably wasted-spark. But running very lean on one cylinder will cause that cylinder to run hot and/or pink. I presume the turbo Astra's got a pinking sensor, but is it around no.2?

Could be that that cylinder was running very lean for some reason - duff injector, extra air (no, on boost it'd be more likely to be blown out than sucked in) - causing that cylinder to overheat the exhaust manifold and pink, damaging the piston.

Reply to
Adrian

In article , CWatters writes

Just been down to pick up my courtesy car (at least they gave me a decent one, rather than a 1.2 Corsa). Unlike Vauxhall, the dealer has at least been sympathetic and "to keep my custom" are perhaps doing it at a bit less than the total price that they could invoice (free service, no charge for the diagnostic work already done, surprisingly competitive on the replacement engine compared with a regular garage that doesn't charge such extortionate labour rates). Still not owning up to it being a problem of theirs, or of Vauxhall's making though.

Anyway, while I was there I picked up my GPS which led me to see the engine. Three of the cylinders look fine. The top of the fourth (#2) looks as if it has been sandblasted, as does the cylinder head. Something has been inside the engine. How would it get in - I'd have thought that they would have filters on fuel and air to stop such problems.

I didn't take a photo, but it looked something like this - however the holes were tiny, as if they had been made by a pin, and there were thousands of them.

formatting link
Please note - that is NOT my engine.

To my knowledge, no work has been done on anything to do with the engine, other than the water pump almost 2 years and 25,000 miles ago.

Reply to
David Mahon

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.