Advice on new tites for Mazda Protege?

No. There is no general Mazda newsgroup created by the rules of the big-8 (of which rec is one of the hierarchies). If your news server shows one, it is wrong.

HTH, Jim

Hmmm..... strange!

Why do you think ther is no general Mazda group?

Surely there have been tons of other Mazda models sold besides the Miata?

Because owners of Mazda models other RX-7 and MX-5 aren't "enthusiasts". IOW, they don't like to yammer on endlessly about their cars the way we do. To them, they might just as well be driving a civic or tercel or whatever as a Mazda. So the Miata/MX-5 crowd is here, the RX-7 crowd is in rec.autos.rotary.

Sure, but newsgroups aren't created based on number of units sold.

Forgive me for getting off topic here, but for the Protégé, I'd go for the cheap ones. Put some cheap ones on the '97 my daughters drive last year and they are doing just fine. For the Miata, I pay a bit more attention. For the "transportation" cars, go for "cheap".

Ken

Boy, that's just really, *really* awful advice.

Please explain OK?

Well, for starters, the previous poster is saying it makes sense to put high-quality tires on a Miata, but to put cheap, i.e. low-quality tires on, say, one's daughter's car or a commuter car. There's really nothing else to explain; it's just plain ignorant to assume that because you're not going to be hot-lapping a Honda Civic sedan, you shouldn't put quality tires on it.

Get a set of quality all-season tires with a brand name. Don't get the house brand or the weekly $25 special. The people that buy these and claim that they're fine tires are people that have never owned fine tires.

To bring my comment full circle:

The cheap tires usually get at least 30+K miles before they get changed out. My point is that people fall in love with outrageous claims which, in essence, convince (coerce?) them to buy "performance" tires for cars that, if they could care, would care less. Also, tire prices are very competitive so this week's "cheap" tire may not have been so last week.

Not too many years ago there was some sort of difference between tires. Factory tires (which cost the car manufacturer about $2 ea) lasted about five thousand miles and whatever you could get as reasonably priced replacements were better, but not much. Modern tires, properly balanced and on a car that is in alignment, are all pretty much the same, regardless of the DOT ratings and what they do or do not mean. There just isn't a measurable difference that you or I can determine.

So go for cheap and enjoy the ride.

Ken

I'm sorry you haven't had the opportunity to drive on anything but the worst tires. If you had, you'd know that's not even close to true. Even on my 20-year-old Accord winter beater, I'm concerned about grip and response. The need for snow capability limits it to all-season tires, but there's still a huge gulf of performance between best and worst. Treadwear isn't everything, even on a beater--if a tire is too scary to drive in the rain, it's not cheap at any price.

Two good all-season tires for small cars are the Dunlop SP Sport A2 and the Bridgestone RE950. The Dunlop is a little better in snow, the Bridgestone a little better on dry roads. I don't know if they are available in the correct size for a Protege.

It has nothing to do with mileage on the tires. However, you can get plenty of mileage out of plenty of quality tires.

This week's cheap tire special is whatever tire the buyer for the chain store happened to get a good truckload deal on.

Ken, all modern tires are not "pretty much the same". There are so many drastic differences in brands, compounds, and quality that I'm just boggled that a so-called enthusiast could be ignorant of it all. I wouldn't put el-cheapo tires on my mother's or daughter's car if my life depended on it, because theirs sure as heck might.

There are probably a dozen good all-season tires available for a reasonable price for something like a Mazda Protege. There's really no reason to go to the tire store and take the cheapest ones because for less than $100 more, you could be rolling out in something decent.

Last time I searched for new tires for my Miata, I walked into one store and asked them what they had in a 195/50/15. The old guy told me they had a set of Dayton something-or-others. I thanked him for his time and turned to walk out, only to hear him say, somewhat sarcastically "What? Not good enough for you or something?" I looked him square in the eye and said "Nope...not even close."

There are differences between tires but us common folk, not having the benefit of analytical equipment, time and appropriate knowledge of the matter are not likely to truly sort it all out. If, of course, any of the readers are actual materials engineers who design tires (compounds, thread patterns, sidewalls, etc), then you certainly know more about the subject and I am interested in your opinions. If you race cars professionally and dwell on the engineering aspects of everything from suspension component finite element analysis to ignition control software development, you probably are knowledgeable in the engineering aspects of tires as well.

Those of you interested in "grip" and "response" and other subjective matter actually fall into my camp. I am interested in subjective matter as well. I acknowledge your observations; mine are somewhat different. My subjective observation is that "cheap" tires on a transportation car perform just dandy and last about as long as any other tire.

I do put brand name tires on the Miata and Audi A4. Sometimes, in my dark reflective moments, I wonder if I'm not being sucked into the lavish world created by the tire marketers. This is especially true when I experience something like one of the sets of Pirellis that behaved strangely over rain grooves on the freeway.

There was a guy once who had a website about oil filters. It might still be viable; don't know. This individual went out and purchased a bunch of different filters, dissected them and offered conclusions based on his observations. He identified himself as some sort of engineer (mechanical, I think) but kept his observations clear and his conclusions objective. I don't recall all of it but remember that he ended up with Promark being highly rated and Fram pretty much at the bottom. In this situation, you could agree or disagree based on something demonstrable and objective.

Not so with tires. Unfortunately.

Ken

To make a point.....

Today's cheap tires at Sears (of course some of these are 13" tires ... for those who actually use them... but you'll get the drift):

Guardsman - $19.88 Falken Ziex - $42.99 BFG - $56.99 BFG - $27.99 Michelin - $34.99 Kumho - $32.98 Michelin - $54.99

Lots of options (and lots of opinions).

Ken

"Just dandy" may mean something different to you than it does to me, Ken. On my beater, I expect tires to be able to help my wife or me handle emergencies gracefully enough that we can avoid hitting anything or running off the road. With typical cheapo tires, all you can do is lock up the brakes and pray for miraculous intervention, or that your insurance won't go up too much. My tire expectations are somewhat greater than holding the rocker panels off the pavement for 100k miles.

No tire is perfect. Each is a set of compromises. The keys to satisfaction are deciding what compromises you can live with, doing the research, and choosing appropriately. You don't need to be a rocket scientist, materials engineer, or race driver, you just need to define your goals and stay focused. The Reviews section of miata.net contains tons of useful, trustworthy information about nearly every name-brand tire. So does the review database at Tire Rack.

Good tires on a mundane FWD sedan are like vaccinations: you hope you'll never need them, but if you do you'll be damned happy you got them.

Yep, Lanny, no tire is perfect. Take a look through the information in the Reviews section of Miata net and the performance information at "Tire Rack". Cut and dry, right?

Not hardly.

In the reviews section you will see a lot of opinions, just like yours and mine, that will provide some sort of guidance to those contemplating a tire purchase. There are a lot of variables here too that affect the perceptions of the posters; probably more than we can imagine. Yet, it does provide some sort of yardstick which is better than knowing nothing.

Tire Rack attempts to offer some semblance of "science" by using matched BMWs under the same conditions with a bevy of common drivers. One wonders, however, if the results tell us as much or more about the cars and drivers as they do the tires. One might question the results (no "killer" tires or statistical deviants here...they are all pretty much the same) and ponder the motives of Tire Rack for providing such information.

But this has little to do with the original issue. The premise on which we differ is the assertion that, somehow, price and "goodness" of the tire, be it the ability to save our loved ones in some sort of emergency or not wear out prematurely or not blow out unexpectedly, etc. is proportional to the price we pay for it. Neither Tire Rack or our own Miata net reviews page contemplated the issue of price vs. anything. Perhaps they assume we all assume they are related. One could take all this test data, somehow arrive at a figure of merit for each Miata net posting, take the compiled data from Tire Rack and plot all of this against unit cost for each tire. What do you expect that will tell us? Do you think that it will conclusively demonstrate that price and the aforementioned factors are in lockstep?

Do we really believe that the tire manufacturers have, for instance, separate design groups for low and high end consumer tires? Do we believe that these guys, if they are separate, work independently, never sharing information or combining their common understanding across the product lines? Not likely.

We speak of "tire formulations" as if any of us has a clue as to what is formulated and why. I would venture a guess that these magical formulations are related to very quantifiable design considerations that are manufacturing related moreso than performance. For instance, a "high end" tire (rated for sustained high speeds, such as one would buy in Germany where we drive along at over 100MPH for sustained periods at any time of the year) might contain a steel structure that is more robust, constructed with increased complexity, use thicker metal, etc that makes the tire stiffer (and, likely, more expensive). The rubber might be formulated to compensate for the increased stiffness but have to also consider the trade offs of heat generated by flexure and possible reduced thread wear. I would also venture a guess that a lot of the rubber formulation has to do with reducing cycle time and increasing fill yields in the molding process.

We all know that a certain amount of study goes into tire patterns to find acceptable tradeoffs between traction, water adhesion, temperature and side forces experienced during cornering and braking. Do you really believe that this knowledge only makes it's way into the high end tires? This hardly seems possible, especially in today's litigious society. The tire stores sell product for $25 ea and $125 (or more) each and stand equally behind their 30+K mile warranty for all. How do you think they are able to do this? Perhaps part of the answer is due to price elasticity: price certain tires lower and you'll sell more. I'm sure they do sell more tires to the general public vs. car enthusiasts; marketing 101 suggests that the enthusiasts will pay more. Would we be surprised to find that margins on tires are, overall, quite acceptable for tire manufacturers? These are certainly factors that are not deadly to my wife and kids. My insurance company, by the way, has never provided me with a list of "acceptable" tires. They have a vested interest in us not impacting anything; these are the guys who literally write the book on such matters. This seems to not be on their radar at all.

As I've stated, Lanny, I don't know the answers. The mind abhorring a vacuum leads me to think about it and ask what I hope are relevant questions. I was hoping that someone who has this type of knowledge will speak up and educate us all. I am most willing to learn new things and consider it a virtue to admit one is wrong and change course. So far, I have gotten mostly religious arguments with absolutely no reason or knowledge behind them. Someone doubted I was an "enthusiast". If an enthusiast is defined as one who is content to assimilate and believe common knowledge without challenge, inspection or introspection, then I suppose I would certainly not qualify.

Respectfully,

Ken

yes I think they are both available for the Protege.

Matter of fact the Bridgestone RE950 is what came on my

I will check the Dunlop SP Sport A2..... don't know much abt them

Ken..... I tend to agee with you.... and agree with the others as well.

Im not a car enthusiast by any means. Nor do i discount the value of having good tires on a vehicle for safety reasons.

But one thing Ive learned is that it's IMPOSSIBLE to compare tires and to shop for them.

I will go to Tire rack and read comments on various tires and invariably there will be a wide mix of opinions on the SAME tire. Some reviews are glowing.... some say the tire is junk!

It seems as tire shopping is a lot like gambling. You spend your money and take your chances. No way to compare tires that makes sense

I don't think you are taking all that much of a chance. Buy some tires, maintain pressure and alignment and drive them till you need more. My experience suggests you will easily cover 30+K miles in the process.

I currently have Bridgestone "Eager" tires on the '90 Miata which are performing well. The A4 has Continentals which are the suggested OEM tire and there are no complaints in that area as well.

Ken

I think this pretty much sums it all up; you keep speaking of tires almost entirely in terms of longevity.

That and safety. These are the two factors of which I can speak from experience.

The rest of it was me exploring the limits of my ignorance, hoping that somebody would enlighten myself and anyone else who truly wished to understand. Unfortunately, nobody did.

This is one of the few newsgroups that I've seen where people actually help one another. Perhaps somebody with a professional background who can speak objectively will come along before this thread ripples off the news server.

Ken