Cranky starting

Have you tried overriding the starter button to see if the problem stops?

Replacing the starter is a fairly easy job, so there shouldn't be too much labor. I would be happy with a rebuilt unit from a reputable company, but would probably feel better putting a brand-new OEM part on there. This is Bozo, after all.....Look at how faithfully he has served you all of these years.

Pat

Think about it, Leon. The starter motor is a low duty cycle item. It turns so many times and then sits there doing nothing for the majority of it's lifetime.

The brushes are still fine. About the only thing that can really wear out are the starter contacts. That's because they cook away as hundreds of amperes of current are involved in starting your car. And that's likely what's going on with yours because you are a smart guy and already checked the electrical contacts at the battery and the starter.

The same thing happened to my '90. At 130K I replaced the starter solenoid (which is where the contacts live). I'm at 180K and several years later; the starter still works just fine.

You can do the replacement starter thing, but why replace something that works fine and will probably last longer than you? I don't recall the model year of your car, but a little research will tell you if it has an external solenoid like mine. If so, it's an easy fix.

You will likely have to buy the solenoid assembly; I recall that the contacts themselves are not serviceable. Sorry....it's been too long and I don't recall how much it cost. I fixed the contacts in my wife's '96 Town and Country which were directly replaceable. They cost about $5.

However, getting the thing out of the car I remember as being a bit difficult. I suppose that removing the engine first would help, or you can tough it out by being clever and patient.

It's also a very good idea to bench test the completed starter before putting it back into the car. Doesn't really have to be on a bench...jumper cables and the garage floor will work. It's considerable torque will cause it to rotate; might want another set of hands to stabilize it.

Good luck with this, Leon.

Ken

Le> Bozo is somewhat cranky in starting nowadays. The relay(?) clicks

First thing to check is your battery terminals. Remove, clean, and reseat them. A marginal battery connection is the most common cause of your symptoms in all sorts of cars.

For some reason I had in my head that this was due to starter motor contacts, the need for rocking being to get them to line up better. Hard to trace from where.

No, but it sounds like a very good idea. The battery terminals are probably OK, though.

Bozo had been standing quite a time, so the Westco was low and I had to swap in the OEM spare, which was on the Battery Tender. But the OEM has apparently finally given the ghost after 10 years, and I had to recharge the Westco and put it back in. So, the battery contacts have presumably been scrubbed by all this and they did not look corroded anyway.

But cleaning the starter motor side may well be quicker than take it to the shop. :)

Sounds reasonable, especially since Bozo is at 137k.

2. > of your car, but a little research will tell you if it has an

I'll check the manuals over the weekend.

That is an easy one: I'll tough it out by being clever and patiently wait for the shop to do it. :)

Thanks.

Leon :)

No. But I hear what I assume is the relay click, so I assume the button is able to close the circuit. Something clicks, but there is no turning.

You are right, though it does not make much sense economically.

Leon

This depends on the local labor prices for your area. Here, there is a sort of set fee to R&R from the local battery & electrical shop. They will open up the solenoid and starter, then tell the owner which way to go. At high mileage, I'd be looking at the contacts in the solenoid, wear on the bendix, starter motor bearings, brushes, and likely turning the commutator. All in all, a "good" rebuilt unit might be the best choice. Or, you might be able to find a good used low mileage 1.8L engine and tranny, and just swap the whole thing, starter and all. Flyin Miata had a used MSM engine, complete with all the goodies for sale. don't know if they sold it. (mucho dinero asked)

Since Bozo and my 626 use the same starter, and I've lived with the "fun" of intermittent "click-no-spin" syndrome, I'm confident in saying that a new solenoid is in Bozo's future, and will cure the problem.

Although I got several hundred (probably closer to a few thousand, actually, seeing as I was starting it dozens of times per shift while delivering pizza with the beast) more starts out of my old one while I saved my pennies for the fresh one - Simply removing the solenoid, disassembling it, and lightly buffing the contacts with 800 grit sandpaper, then putting everything back together was all it took. There was a build-up of "arc-crud" from the who-knows-how-many-bazillion make/break cycles over the last 20-odd years, and removing that layer of crud exposed nice fresh copper to make contact - Probably could have continued for a *LONG* time without bothering to buy a fresh solenoid, but once I got the money together for it, figured "what the heck" and went for it anyway. If I remember right, the out-the-door cost was under $25.

"Flip the disk" and file the contacts was a common solution for solenoid problems on many of the 60's and 70's model american cars. With all the effort to reduce cost and weight, I really don't know if this would work on the average starter solenoid used today. (if not, getting the parts may be a problem for some of "them furrin" solenoids.) Sometimes things can get really stupid. A friend of mine had problems with a pump motor in his cars abs system. (brushes) The brushes were not available, the motor was not available, and the only "approved" way to repair was to replace the whole abs unit at a cost of several hundred dollars. A quick trip to a small motor and vacuum cleaner repair shop located a set of brushes that could be trimmed down to fit. End of problem, with a cost of $5 and some time and effort. A broken arm rest on the inside of a door panel may end up as a replacement of the whole door panel, at a high price.

What I usually see is that a high mileage car in "normal" use has quite a bit of wear on various parts of the starter. Replacing just the failed parts will restore the starter to proper operation, but for how long? I've had customers complain that such repairs don't last long enough. (Even though the warrenty on the repair expired more than a year before the starter failed again.)

Another real lulu was a 60's Ford Falcon. It seems that the car was involved in a messy divorce, and just sat outside for more than a year. We were hired to tow the car to the shop, and get it running again. We did a fairly decent job, replacing all the parts that had deteriorated, flushed the brake and cooling systems, pulled the pan, cleaned out the oil screen, flushed out the oil system, and replace the usual plugs and wires. Several weeks later, we got an irate call from the female owner. On investigation, it turned out that the oil idiot light came on, and she drove the car anyway (until the engine siezed). Had she shut the engine down when the idiot light came on and did not go out, we would have repaired the damage at no cost, even though it might have been due to something we had not replaced.. As it was, we ended up replacing the engine charging only for our cost of parts, and no labor. (small town, customer satisfaction very important) You should also understand that the shop involved repaired & rebuilt aircraft and aircraft engines with FAA inspection and approval.

whitelist,

"PopperAndShadow"

info

Arrrgh! When you suggested that it would be a *smart* idea to clean the contacts at the starter, I of course assumed they would be somewhere on top of the valve cover, secured by a non corroded nut or bolt with not a drop of tighten. They are next to the oil filter!! I had to jack up the car, jack down the car, loosen the right front lug nuts, jack up the car, take off the wheel to even get a glance at them from afar, after I reconstructed the location from careful perusal of the shop manual, enthusiast manual, and Haynes. I always thought the starter motor was the thing at the front, that looks like it would be a good motor. (I also thought of the thing of the front as the alternator, in different circumstances. Hard to make up your mind about those things.)

Finally, I got the contacts off and cleaned by spraining my left wrist trying to work in the blind (if you ask me, Mazda assumes the cars will be serviced by creatures with eyes in their fingers.) Hopefully, all the blood on them from wounds that will no doubt fester and require amputation of both arms will not create additional problems with poor contacts. Of course, if West Nile virus kills me off first, that is one less thing to worry about.

Anyway, as far as I see, the consensus is that it is probably the starter solenoid. While Bozo has only 137 kmi, it actually has been started relatively many times: I live only 5 miles from work. I will convey my personal condolences to the shop that is going to replace that thing. I am not going back to within fifteen feet of the thing to do it myself.

The good thing is that I had time left to replace the switch for the wink with one with a real metal handle that will hopefully not break off within a month. :) I cannot image there are people out there with M1 Miatas that cannot properly wink. And the dash lights and lights-on buzzer seem to work again too.

Leon

A (good) shop can have that starter off in about 15 minutes or so after putting it on a lift. For you and me, who get to use a floor jack and look as best as we can up there, it becomes part of the semi-annual sacrifice of blood, sweat and tears that keep the car going. I still don't see how you can find blindly reaching for an oily bolt while cutting the crap out of yourself and getting bitten by disease-carrying parasites to be anything but pure fun... :-)

Pat

They must have a very strong mouse working for them. Unless you mean "put it on a lift and drop it off." :)

Leon

Please elaborate. The starter does not have a lot of room around it, but it can be reached with my standard socket set.

If you are able to stand underneath the car and use the tools that any decent shop has, it is not going to be a lengthy process. Maybe more than 15 minutes, but not much if the mechanic knows what they are doing.

Pat

Absolutely; Throw the sockets at it through the 1" hole.

Leon :)

Does your JRSC intake block access to a securing bolt on the starter that is exposed on an unmodified miata?

Otherwise, while access is restricted by the manifold enough to make it a little difficult, it is certainly possible to remove the starter with a normal ratchet/socket set. The Enthusiast's shop manual mentions that it is tight, but does not call for special tools to take it off. You remove the bolts, wiggle it out from the bottom, put the new one on and you are done. It is not rocket science... ;-)

The worst part of replacing the one miata starter that I have done was the fact that I was on my back while doing it. A lift would have made all of the difference in the world. Even swapping one on the ground, it was not that terrible or lengthy a job, which is why I am wondering if anything aftermarket on your car is making the job more difficult and time-consuming than normal.

We are talking about the actual starter motor that engages the flywheel, correct?

Pat

Not that I know.

Maybe. I did get the tension leads off, but only because the nut was on there fairly loosely. If it would have been on there tight, I do not know how I would have generated the torque required. And I could not do it with normal or deep sockets, with or without short extensions. I used a patent ratcheting box wrench. In any case, I could either get my arm in or my eyes in; I had to feel my way.

The EM also claims it is possible to detach the lighter socket from inside catches. The only thing I ever managed to do is use brute force from the outside with a tiny screw driver.

Correct :(

Don't know for sure. Lying on the ground grasping in the blind for touch-recognizable parts through a hole in the wheel well does not make for social conservation. They may well have exchanged rings.

Leon

One way is to get someone that is stronger than yourself to break it free, and not just someone who is stronger-smelling, if such were even possible. ;-)

Ahh, yes... I used an open-end wrench on the leads. The ratchet wrench was for the bolts that hold it on to the engine. You are correct, the contacts have to be done by feel and it is not fun. I do remember leaving some skin and blood behind when I did the replacement. It didn't take long, though I may have been less injured if I had taken more time.

No argument, the book is not 100% correct, but having replaced a starter, they have that part down right. One problem is that they have torn down a 1990 model, and many things changed before 1999, but I think that the starter setup remained the same for every year of the M1 miata. Also, the ligher socket does come out very easily with two plastic catches, you just have to remove the dash first to get to them, no big deal......

I guess I deserved that one after the "does she know what state she is in" comment. :-)

I do have to hit back, however. When an engagement occurs, it is usually a man giving a women a diamond engagement ring, though not always. The actual ring "exchange" by the couple almost always occurs at the wedding, at least in this part of the world. ;-)

Pat

That is outrageous! Blatantly sexist! What does the ERA have to say about THAT?

And you act as though it is normal.

Leon

Hey, I didn't make the rules...... :-)