Please explain wheel size differences.

[snip] ?

Handling is very subjective. Some believe that skidpad and slalom numbers are the be all and end all. Some think they are at least indicative, some think meaningless. Me, I subscribe to skidpad being almost all about the tire, surface and a stiff (not necessarily "good" suspension. In that order.

While slalom is at least more related to handling, it is far from a perfect measure. I've read many a time that FWD cars have a slalom advantage, but almost all say RWD has inherent "handling" advantages.

Handling is more about how the car behaves closer to its limits, how it communicates that. And, of course, how high those limits.

I've read many a review that claimed that Vipers are rather evil handlers. This from the mag editors as well as professionals. Now in almost all those reviews, it ran the fastest lap times and put down some of, if not THE, top skidpads and slalom times.

I've read reviews saying the 'Vette is a great handler to cr*p (the latter from the mags from our Brit friends). Personally, I go for lightweight, nimble cars, but I'd never call the 'Vette a bad handler. I'm not expert enough nor do I take cars to their limit, or beyond, enough. [Nor am I saying the Miata is a better handler].

In sum: very, very subjective.

Reply to
Dave
Loading thread data ...

Then again, maybe the excessive price of the corvette has?

I would call that "handling." I am completely with Dave that this is all subjective, but I would not equate "handling" with "performance" at all. And I am not looking for "pay off" (proving anything), just for fun with a good handling car. I define handling essentially as "tossability". Will the car do what you want it to do or do you have to be patient and let the car do what it needs to do?

Well, I am very far from winning at autocross, and a Corvette would not help anything. Tight or not. Then again, I do not really care.

Yes, handling problems because of excessive power.

0.89 seems very, very poor? What sort of cheap tires do they put on this overpriced piece of Detroit junk that is supposed to be a "sportscar"?

Strange that 1.00 g would be the record, when another Racing Beat Miata in 2000 did an *average* of 1.03 g? That Miata was apparently on street sways and stock springs too because ride comfort was a consideration. (Even the Konis were on full soft, though that should not affect skidpad.) In addition, it did not have very wide tires either, unlike the S2000 that it ran against.

formatting link
Anyway, as Dave points out, the skidpad is simply a matter of tires, it has nothing to do with the car (beyond miniscule benefits the Corvette might conceivably get from a lower cg and stiffer sway bars.) It certainly has nothing to do with *handling* in my book. Just another yawn number.

Nothing to me. I do not define "handling" as slalom times.

Here we agree. The Corvette is an American muscle car and the Miata is a Japanese sportscar. The Corvette is a thrill to drive for a week, and the Miata is fun all the time.

And unnecessary, according to their design. What the heck would you want to test?

I do not have any experience with American sportscars, so I trust you here.

Leon

Reply to
Leon van Dommelen

Few years back, just around the time I bought my 2000 NB, there was a story in Road&Track or Car&Driver (can't remember which) where they lined up a bunch of sports cars and a couple of pro drivers on a road race course and did a stopwatch comparo. Idea was to figure out which car was the fastest, mixing classes and types of automobiles. Among the contenders were Miata (of course), Corvette, M3, 911, Elise, S2000, 360 Modena, Viper, etc. Maybe there were 10 cars? The Elise was supposed to be the "ringer" but it didn't come out on top. Idea was to allow all of the drivers drive all of the cars, average their track times and pick the winner. So it wasn't a raw-numbers thing as far as lateral grip or slalom time, but had to do with how easy the car is to drive.

Anyway, Miata finished near the top but not absolutely on top, but did amazingly well considering it had 1/4 the power and 1/8 the pricetag of some of the cars in the lineup.

Some of the comments about the Miata from the drivers showed the real point. They said while the Miata had lower limits for absolute cornering than, say, a Viper, they said it was possible to drive the Miata beyond the cornering limits... drifting every corner, walking it around corners, etc. But that going over the limit in a Viper was such a disaster that you had to drive under the limits all the time. So the measured limits did not correlate to the performance. Even with a major horsepower and numbers handicap, Miata performed in the top of the pack because it could be driven faster around the track, regardless of the limits.

So the ability to drive over the limit, recover, control the car when it's in a slide, predict the behavior of the car, stability of the car over the limits, etc., all affects how the car "handles" and also how fast you can drive it.

For example, I had a VW Jetta GLI 16V with full-blown race suspension (and street tires) that drove on the street like a go-cart. It was crisp, nimble, lightweight, would corner VERY fast, had insanely high cornering limits, etc. Really, below the limit, in an entirely different league from a Miata. But woe to you if you imbalanced the car in a corner. Lift the throttle just a LITTLE BIT inside a corner and you were going to very rapidly swap ends. Brake hard on the way into a corner was a sure fire way into a spin. You had to throttle through corners and know exactly how and when to brake, steer, etc. It took a much higher amount of skill, and more margin, to drive the car. After the rod bearing went out on that car, I bought my 2000 PEP Miata and even with the factory 14" wheels/tires it would go through any corner faster than my racer-boy 16V. The reason is because I could drift controllably around a corner in the Miata, feel it slowly coming around and bring it in, brake inside a corner, hey, the car's forgiving. Under the limit, yeah the 16V felt a lot more like a go-cart. However, in the end, I guarantee my bone-stock Miata is a faster car in the hands of most drivers. Someone specializing in driving front-drive VW's with enormous amount of roll stiffness in the rear could probably make the 16V go faster, but that would take really special skill. Miatas are fun and fast every day, for any driver.

This is the same thing that made Datsun 240Z's such popular and fun cars for most people, even though there were certainly faster and more powerful cars out there, the Z cars dominated on the race track. Balance, poise, ease of recovery, and predictability are all very important in a sports car. In fact, I'd say these factors are what separate a "true" sports car from a car that's just a sporty-styled "fast" car.

Reply to
josh

This is something I can agree with. You don't think that article would be online? It would be nice to be able to post the link once in a while when the need arises. :)

Leon

Reply to
Leon van Dommelen

So far as I'm concerned all that lot i.e. how the car reacts to the driver's inputs and how the driver can predict what it's going to do, amounts to the

*definition* of what a cars handling is. I totally agree that a car which turns round and bites if you treat the slightest bit ham-fistedly is much less pleasant to drive than one which is more fogiving and predictable, even if the absolute limits of grip are lower for the latter vehicle, and therefore likely to be slower from A to B in the real world.

SteveM

Reply to
Stephen Malbon

I looked all over the C/D\R&T web sites and it wasn't there... oldest they had was 2002 and I am sure it was either late 2000 or 2001 when the article came out. I did a rather extensive web search to see if it was archived anywhere and found nothing.

BUT-- it sure would be worthwhile to have because it was a unique report in that they really didn't dwell on the numbers much at all, and it explained in a lot of ways why even though some cars (such as Miata) don't dominate all of the number games, they still show up on the "10 best" list year after year and are enduring classic sports cars. Most other tests are either too narrow, focus mostly on numbers/price/etc., or attempt to group like cars together (Best Roadster, supercar vs. supercar, etc.). This was really a cross-section of cars that had maybe 11 cars, had a 4-door sedan in there, a barely-street-legal racing car, a $20K everyman roadster, a $125K exotic, big American muscle, you name it.

Maybe someone else is a better web searcher than I am and can find it. I know it was R&T or C&D (probably Car and Driver) and it was between about July of 2000 and July of 2001. If there was an index of feature articles from those magazines somewhere for that time period (say, a library?), it would be easy to locate.

Reply to
josh

I've been subscribing for most of the last 5-7 years, and I can't think of the exact issue you described. One similar was the R&T "Get a Grip" June '02 feature which the 360 won, followed by Elise. But they didn't test a Miata, rather they had the FWD Mazda MP3, and it finished last (though it got many positive comments).

You can check the R&T index library:

formatting link
&article_id1 Perusing there, I did find the "best convertibles" article (July '01), but it doesn't seem a head to head as you describe:

formatting link
2&page_number=1&previewI do recall C&D ~1997 having a "best handling car under $30K" (Prelude 1st, 318ti, then Miata NA), and a follow-on "best handling car over $30K" (M3 wins over Viper, Vette, F355, etc, invited Prelude finished better than mid-pack). I can't think of one where the Miata went against the big boys head-to-head. And I know in lap times it would get clobbered.

But, as I posted before, I do agree with the rest of your points on subjective handling. Still, if someone gave me my choice of keys, Modena all the way, baby!

Reply to
Dave

Cynics regard everybody as equally corrupt. Idealists regard everybody as equally corrupt, except themselves.

Say, do you have any psychological problems?

A poor beauty finds more lovers than husbands.

Basic systems for a gravity distortion system allow time travel. They are:

  1. Magnetic housing units for dual microsignularities.
  2. Electron injection manifold to alter mass and gravity of microsingularities.
  3. Cooling and x-ray venting system
  4. Gravity sensors (VGL system)
  5. Main clocks (4 cesium units)
  6. Main computer units (3)

I am sure you are not expert enough nor do you take cars to their limit.

The civil war in the United States will start in 2004. I would describe it as having a Waco type event every month that steadily gets worse. The conflict will consume everyone in the US by 2012 and end in 2015 with a very short WWIII.

-- Lady Chatterly

"Lady Chatterly bitch slapped you and you just can't deal with it. I bet you pull typical Pangborn and go run and hide from her now." -- Aratzio

Reply to
Lady Chatterly

Can you be certain you cannot think of the exact issue they described?

We do have hospitals but there are more family doctors and house calls as compared to what you are used to. Though there is no real organized health care. If you get a serious disease, you die.

There are unusual events in 2012 but they do not cause the world to end. It is important that they be a surprise. Perhaps you are familiar with the story of the Red Sea and the Egyptians?

Why do you wonder if you cannot think of one where the miata went against the big boys head to head?

Solar is big. There is thought that a singularity generator could also be used but most people are against it.

-- Lady Chatterly

"Eliza-type bots cannot correct typos but Lady Chatterly has on occasion." -- Dr. Zen

Reply to
Lady Chatterly

The bigger cars need bigger brakes. So you need bigger rims to allow bigger brakes.

-------------- Alex

Reply to
Alex Rodriguez

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.