T1-S or T1-R

The dilemma:

Anticipating needing tires by summer, should I replace my T1-S's which I like very much, or wait, and probably spend a lot more money on the forthcoming T1-R's?

Reply to
Frank Berger
Loading thread data ...

I'll face the same choice. Let's wait and see how the R is priced after the initial mania wears off. For that matter, the S may no longer be available by summer, who knows?

Reply to
Lanny Chambers

I would not know why the R's would go for more money. Sounds like a minor tweaking of the T1-S, and not for performance. I checked the Toyo UK web site as of Lanny, and it seemed to me the tread was optimized a bit more for water flow. This tends to go at the expense of dry performance.

It really sounded to me that they were moving away from maximum performance to target a larger market segment, at maybe lower prices. Just a hunch.

Leon

Reply to
Leon van Dommelen

At one UK dealer site I checked, the S and the R of a particular size are the same price. But being new, the R may not be discounted in the U.S. for awhile.

Did you see the "performance circle" graphic? The R meets or exceeds the S in every parameter. I would expect the major differences to be better turn in and a little more treadlife--the two areas most in need of improvement.

I'm looking forward to trying a set next summer.

Reply to
Lanny Chambers

No. There is none with the tire description. There *is* "click for a bigger picture of the tyre."

Leon

Reply to
Leon van Dommelen

Wouldn't better turn in have to at least somewhat compromise the comfort that you currently enjoy with the Toyo T1-S? The same for treadlife, won't they have to have at least a bit less grip if they last longer? Or are the advances in tire technology allowing the makers to improve one or more characteristics of a tire without giving up anything on the other tire properties?

I am just curious because it seems like tires are one of the main areas where you never get something for nothing. Increase the sidewall stiffness and you lose comfort but gain some turn in, decrease the stiffness and you gain comfort but lose some turn in. Make the tire sticky and it will grip well but wear out quickly. Make it a harder compound and it will last longer but have less grip, unless I am missing something.

Pat

Reply to
pws

formatting link

Reply to
Lanny Chambers

That's exactly what Toyo is claiming, and I'm looking forward to seeing for myself.

Reply to
Lanny Chambers

I just looked at the link and that answered most of my questions, the technology sounds cool, I will be interested in hearing your report on the real-life performance. The car I got has new tires that are decent so it will be a while before I get to put a set I really like on the car. If you like the new Toyos and they aren't too terribly expensive in

205/40/16, I will probably go with them as well.

Pat

Reply to
pws

You told me to look at the UK web site, not?

And then I thought you were talking about a friction circle! This "Performance Cycle" is just bull:

- "Dry handling is undefined, so it makes the claim unfalsifiable. Whatever ratings Toyo want to give itself is unchallengeable.

- Dry braking is more straightforward, but still subject to many variables such as pavement condition, dirt, tire temperature, slip, and countless other variables. Giving a single number is bull, you need a different number for each set of circumstances.

- "Wet handling" claims are just as unfalsifiable as dry.

- I will not even touch wet braking. Not a mention of pollutants like oil or coolant, which were already a weak point on the original S, and might be worse on the R for all I know. Dry braking on a laboratory-clean surface does not worry me much in *real* life.

- Aqua straight? Is that some measure of aquaplaning? That would be very much up to whatever you make of it too.

- Noise is a frequency-dependent variable, not a simple number. and *each* of the numbers are going to depend on conditions such as road surface, tire speed, load, etc, in turn.

- "Noise wear" seems in context to mean "noise worn" and is just as bull as "noise new".

- "Tire life" is whatever rating they want to give themselves using their own standards.

"Performance comparison??" "Willingness to make unsubstantiated and unsubstantial claims comparison: now versus when we brought out the T1-S" is what it is.

Gee.

Leon ;)

Reply to
Leon van Dommelen

Leon, Leon, Leon.........wish I could spell argumentative........Maybe I just did.......I'm probably just over confident.

Chris

92BB&T
Reply to
Chris D'Agnolo

I have no issue with you wanting to keep an open mind about the tire. But putting up this "performance cycle" as evidence is simply crap. If anything is obviously a product of the ad dept instead of the design dept.

I am willing to believe they have put a thread compound in with a longer wear life due to less heat build up. That is what I read between the lines from the UK site even before seeing this description. But to suggest that a longer-life cooler compound

*increases* handling is just hype. The laws of chemistry did not suddenly change after a century or so because they tweaked a computer program slightly. Nor did the laws of physics change, this heat build up is a direct result of hysteresis which is needed for deformation friction, and adhesion friction. Let's have the *evidence*, OK.

To claim that instead of the expected reduction in handling, there is a ***** 20% increase ******, as the "performance circle" does is in my opinion so completely ridiculous that I am just completely surprised that I am apparently the only one seeing that this is absolutely nonsense. Countless research departments have been putting additives in rubber for a century on large scale; there is not going to be any dramatic changes unless a completely different technology is developed, if ever.

That wet handling was improved because of "rigid thread hardness" seems absolute nonsense too. Wet friction is governed by deformation friction, which should be reduced according to the claim of less heat build up in the compound.

Riding comfort may well have been improved, in view of the apparent desire to reach a broader base, (and the willingness to use blatant hype to do it.) And I am willing to believe that the tire still has "road hugging grip", whatever that means, and still has "excellent braking performance dry and wet".

Aquaplaning might be improved minimally, but I do not think there is that much you can do about it in any case. At some point, the water has enough speed to lift the car.

The only *evidence* given about any actual improvements is a *FEM graph* of contact *pressure*. Before I believed that having very minor areas of elevated pressures at tread edges is necessarily bad, I would like to see some actual measured *data*, rather than color graphs coming out of a highly simplistic computer program.

You might note that the claims of the "performance cycle" are pretty much the opposite of the claims made in the narrative. (No increase in dry braking, big increase in "dry handling" with little increase in tire life.) And that the increases are bigger the more meaningless the claims are. Numbers like braking, where someone outside might actually measure braking distance do not increase. Wet braking increases a bit since wet braking experiments have much more variation and they can blame the lack of experimental verification on that.

Of course, dry handling increases dramatically because the placebo effect, and comparison worn T1-S versus new T1-R, will no doubt cause zillions of gullible buyers to wax about "the big improvement in handling". Even if handling will actually deteriorate, as I think.

If they had shown actual braking distances, dry and wet skid pad numbers, friction circle, aquaplaning speed comparisons, measurements that outside sources could repeat and agree or disagree with, I would have respected it. What we get is unspecified, unsubstantial, unsubstantiated, self-contradictory, and established-knowledge-contradictory hype.

Leon ;)

Reply to
Leon van Dommelen

And thanks to 'established knowledge,' we can agree that the earth is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, the four elements of life are fire, water, air and dirt, and some races are superior to others.

Good enuf for me! I certainly don't want to change my thinking due to some pesky new facts!

Reply to
South Ocean Drive

Don't worry, you are not the only one. I am extremely cynical of ALL advertising that is created by any company selling any product. I also agree that the "performance circle" is a bunch of crap. I would need to see actual tests between the two tires using the most identical cars and conditions possible to believe what it says at all.

I also agree that a lot of people will be replacing their worn out T1-S tires with this new one and will marvel at the wonderful handling difference as if the tires they replaced were still new.

Pat

Reply to
pws

We have a guy at work that switched to the brand of oil where the engine kept running after the other one quit on that TV ad.

_______________________________________________________________________________ Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -

formatting link
The Worlds Uncensored News Source

Reply to
Tom

formatting link
The Worlds Uncensored News Source

Is that the commercial where they poured sand into the valve train while it was running? I forgot which brand that was.

Pat

Reply to
pws

_______________________________________________________________________________

formatting link
> The Worlds Uncensored News Source

I don't recall the brand nor the ad ....I just thought it proved how valuable hype can be.

_______________________________________________________________________________ Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -

formatting link
The Worlds Uncensored News Source

Reply to
Tom

I feel sorry for you. As soon as there are facts to show different, I always immediately adjust my thinking.

But then, I have a feeling that what you are really implying is that you would change your thinking in the complete absence of fact or reason, just because you want to believe. In that case I still feel sorry for you.

My approach is to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out. :)

Leon

Reply to
Leon van Dommelen

_______________________________________________________________________________

formatting link
>> The Worlds Uncensored News Source

I think they all do it. One engine manufacturer got so fed up with it that they ran their own test on a couple of their engines. Both engines kept running, but "Rattle Brand Oil Additive" caused more damage than no additive. :)

Leon

Reply to
Leon van Dommelen

Well I guess Vroom Vroom sells more than we got a clutch problem this year ....but don't worry we will replace it for you.

_______________________________________________________________________________ Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -

formatting link
The Worlds Uncensored News Source

Reply to
Tom

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.