By looking at partnumbers (through www.detali.ru) it appears as if
internal parts will fit. Planetary assembly, shaft and a few other
parts are different part numbers, but all seals, clutch plates etc.
are the same, so dimensions are necessarily the same. That makes it
worth the try.
The valve body itself and spacer plates have different part numbers,
possibly due to at slightly different hydraulic design or maybe just
due to different shift points. I will be at bit more cautious here.
Unfortunately, I do not have the time until the weekend.
When swapping parts, I found - of course - that some gaskets (front
cover and rear case in particular) couldn't be reused, and I had to
wait for the parts to arrive. This was exactly the reason (waiting for
parts) why I didn't want to do the repair in first place.
Anyway having the transmission apart I found the reason of the lacking
reverse to be the clutch (brake) friction discs of B3 to be worn down.
I could see by wear marks on the inside of the B3 piston, that the B1/
K1 drum had stopped the B3 piston from engaging B3 - therefor no
I was suprised by looking at all the gears and bearings - there was no
visible signs of wear after 750.000 km. Seal material was hard after
20 years of use, but still tight. B1 and B2 brake bands were not as
thick as the new ones, but still plenty of friction material to go the
same distance again. I didn't open K1 and K2 packs (yet) and have
therefor not determined their condition, but they were working well.
Seen in the rear mirror, I should just have done the complete overhaul
in the first place, using the overhaul kit available. It would have
been cheaper and costed less work and worries.... if I had just known
the good shape of the gears.
It was a time consuming job to do (because it was first time I tried),
but it was really not that difficult. Removing/installing the
transmission was in fact much harder.
The lesson learned (and to be shared) is that the gearbox itself will
run forever, and an overhaul with friction discs and all sealings will
give you a virtually new gearbox. Really not a job to be afraid of, as
long as you observe cleanliness during the overhaul.
Now it works well. It shifts a bit too harsh to my taste, although the
vaccum control has been turned fully ccw. There is a relatively heavy
leakage from the place, where the secondary pump is if fitted (not in
my case), which I still have to clear.
Thanks for the help.
I am sorry you had to learn this the hard and expensive way. Perhaps
you can rebuild this 'spare' tranny and recoupe some of your cost.
So, I am assuming you swapped all the parts out of the newer tranny
into your old casing. I can only assume that the springs used in the 600
clutch pack are stronger than the one in your original tranny. Hence, it
I don't know if swapping the vacuum modulator from the newer tranny into
your older one will solve this problem since more powerful engine will have
more torque to 'slip' the clutch pack for smoother shifting.
I should have thought of that different engine has different
bellhousing. When I swapped mine, it was from newer 2.3 190E into older 2.3
190E... so no difference in the housing..
I don't really feel that sorry. In the end, I still have a new gearbox
inside - and gained some more experience.
Meanwhile I've for free got hold on another .358 tranny (same bell
housing as mine), which is leaking but otherwise OK. Now I have plenty
of spares (which I probably won't need), and I may make a rebuild, if
someone should need it.
I checked part numbers on clutch and brake band springs, and they are
the same as for the V12. So harsh (fast) shifting is not due to this.
I cannot say about pistons and springs inside valve body, which could
be different (valve body part number is different although all
channels and connections are identical).
Vaccum Modulator part number is however different (probably providing
different modulating pressure), and since that is exactly what
controls the shift behaviour, I will try to put in the old unit, next
time I get it lifted.
I don't really feel that sorry. Afterall, I still have a new
transmission inside - and gained some more experience.
Of course it would have been nice (very) to have saved the difference
from an overhaul kit to the one I bought. But as you say, maybe
someone needs a rebuild tranny, which I could do (meanwhile I got one
more leaking but otherwise functional .358 tranny for free), or at new
converter for a V12.
Anyway, I checked part numbers of springs for clutches and brake
bands, and they are all the same for .368 and .362. I cannot tell
about pistons and springs inside the valve body, which has a different
part number as a whole, but otherwise is identical in terms of
internal channels, position of valves, connections through the
intermediate plate etc. Thus could give a different shift behaviour.
Vacuum modulator does have different part number and probably a
different modulating pressure range. Since this has exactly the
purpose of matching the shift transition, I will try to swap back to
the old one, next time I get it lifted.
Thanks for the latest status update. In fact, that is the best part of
the discussion, so we know the actual reason of the failure. Many times
we see the symptoms and suggestions but don't know the results.
I have been watching this thread closely, since I also face the question
what to do with my 84 190D transmission. I first found water in ATF
about a years ago. The radiator was immediately replaced. A few months
later, the same milky ATF appeared. The car almost does not move right
now even after fresh ATF. I now suspect rain water though I cannot
determine where it gets into the tranny. I am thinking toward
rebuilding but cannot find much information about "how".
Based on your description, a rebuild does not need special tool. If
removal is the most difficult part, I am sure I can do it (as long as I
can find the time to do it). I do have the ATSG manual.
Wherever you get the rebuild kit, you can buy the manual on how to rebuild
I have done rebuilding my 722.3 tranny and it wasn't hard for the work. You
do need some basic tool such as a circlip spreader. I think there is also a
snap ring so a snap ring plier is needed too... cheap at Harbor Freight.
The water damage the friction materials and maybe some seals.
You do need to take time to do this work... I'd spread it over 2 days so
your mind is clear. Friction plates and bands needs to be soaked in ATF for
at least 24 hours if I recalled correctly... unless it is a couple of hours.
Tiger, thanks for the additional info. My confidence is higher after
seeing this thread. Yes, I should have enough tools to do the work. My
wife will probably think I have too many :-)
I look in EPC. There seems to be kit for the internal rebuild, but
shouldn't I also renew the seals or parts in valve body? There are not
many shown in EPC. Another option is I can send it out to MB tranny
specialists. The price I was quoted is $400 - $500 (just the valve
body). Many places offer entire rebuilt tranny around $1500 (plus
around $200 for shipping).
That is the delimma for us in USA... we can get cheap rebuild. However, my
experience with Cottman Transmission long time ago was not good. I was young
and maive and they tricked me into a rebuild.
The transmission didn't last... just a little past 1 year warranty. Not
every rebuilder will replace everything that is in the basic rebuild
package. They can buy individual parts and determine what is just needed.
They want to save as much money as possible because 1 year is plenty of time
for the tranny to survive. Hardly anyone rebuild valve body... they probably
just clean it up. What I am saying is they will reuse as many parts as
possible because it is only 1 year.
Transmission shops around here demands $2500 for a rebuild. I can source
$1250 rebuild but no experience with them but they are close by my house.
Rebuild kit can be bought anywhere... no need to specific MB parts. Outfits
like Jaggi will provide you a complete kit for valve body.
An overhaul kit from Mercedes is priced at 350$. I don't know exactly
what it contains. Accourding to EPC markings, it is just sealings and
gaskets, but I cannot make it add up to that value.
Anyway, according to the experience I just gained, you should replace
ALL sealings and gaskets, inspect other parts and replace as necessary
(probably nothing needed). I would in any case replace all friction
plates of K1, K2 and B3 - they are not that expensive.
And I would get a couple of brake band thrust pin holders p/n 140 277
01 51. They break easily and cost very little.
The ATSG manual is quite detailed in the procedures of dismantling/
reassembling. It refers to some special tools, but in general you can
do without them.
The B2 springs are quite strong, but once you have taken off the valve
body etc., you can use an ordinary large clamp to span accross the
transmission body to compress and remove/fit the spring set.
There is a number of clearances to verify, but in general things
fitted before and will fit again with new K!, K2 and B3 friction
plates (unless bearing, thrust rings etc. are really worn - then you
have an entire different problem than just clearances).
Be careful when taking apart the valve body. Check balls, springs etc.
may fall out. But don't be afraid, if it happens (as it did to me).
The manual is quite accurate in pointing out the locations.
The manual specifies 12 hours for the job (when tranny is out). I
spent some 18 hours on taking apart the two transmissions and
assemling them into one, including a couple of hours to thoroughly
clean the bell housing (to avoid dirt in the assembly work), but
excluding taking apart the clutch packs (they were new from the
donor). Much of the time was spent on reading and understanding the
Thanks for the good head-up. I did worry about some of the special
tools mentioned in the ATSG manual. It is great news I don't really
have to use them.
From what you know about the construction of the housing, where do you
think my tranny can get the water from? It is a lot, not just drops. I
estimate there is at least a cup of water mixed in ATF. Radiator was
replaced immediately after the first occurrence. I noticed it again a
few months later while there was no loss of coolant at all. The tranny
does leak (about a liter every 15-20k miles).
ATF runs through a closed circuit. Generally the ATF is under
pressure, which decreases through the various actuators etc., before
it passes the radiator for cooling (or heating to the operating
temperature of 80C) until it finally arrives to the oil pan again (at
zero relative pressure).
The circuit breathes to the atmosphere through a breather at rear top
of the housing and through the dip stick (leading to the oil pan).
Water will only enter the ATF circuit, when water pressure is higher
than ATF pressure at the point of entry. Or it more or less drips into
the oil pan through the breathing places or another unintended hole
(unlikely - from where should the water come? - I cannot see it,
unless you use the car in some amphibious way).
In the radiator, water is present with a pressure significantly higher
than the ATF passing through. This is true, when the water is hot -
otherwise it is vice versa, and ATF could enter the coolant. This is
still the most likely point of entry, even if you don't see the a drop
in coolant level, and even though you already replaced the radiator
(from where did you get it?).
There is up to three vacuum connections to the tranny: Modulator and
two connections to the throttle position cable (one for Standard/
Economy mode selection if present, and one for delayed upshift when
engine is cold). In all cases they will never carry water (unless your
vacuum circuit is filled with water, which is again more or less
impossible), and they will never provide pressure. Leak in the vacuum
actuator diaphrams would suck out ATF from the tranny and contaminate
your vacuum system, which would be an entire different problem
(happened to me).
Go for the radiator once again.
No, I have not bought anything from them but I would not have a problem
ordering from them. There is another MB tranny part supplier... Jaggi... do
a search... and same is there... they will supply you parts.
Those prices they quoted on the parts are actually wholesale prices that
tranny shop pays... so you can see how much profit is involved when you are
trained to rebuild tranny. There are some tricks and experience that makes a
difference on a tranny that will last a long time.
On rebuilt transmission, their prices are fair... I can get them even lower
but don't know their reputation... at least they are local to me and they do
offer extended warranty on their tranny. I think last I saw the prices... I
can buy tranny, have them put it in for a hundred or two more than the price
you have seen.
For newer tranny... I think it is like $700 cheaper. Anyway... hope these
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