Headlight choices

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Tiger wrote:

Halogen bulbs in reflector headlamp assemblies have shields on them as well. That doesn't mean that a shielded HID capsule should be used in its place. The reason behind that is detailed in my previous post.
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Look Arif, I know what you are trying to say... yes, there are some kit that is badly designed but not all of them are.
I personally have done the conversion and I have verified the output effect. I did it on a low beam projector beam though... and the light output was very well controlled.
There are technicalities involved... yes, but it doesn't mean the rest of the world have no idea what they are doing with HID.
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Tiger wrote:

I'm not saying that all of them are. If a kit includes assemblies with the HID capsules, then theoretically it should work fine. If the kit involves modifying your existing headlamp assemblies (that were orignally designed for halogen bulb light output) so that HID capsules can be inserted in their place, then that's bad design (not to mention illegal).
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On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Arif Khokar wrote:

I am. The "HID kits" this "Tiger" nitwit keeps insisting are fine are the "bulb retrofit" type, and *all* of them are bad, on a conceptual level. The care (or lack thereof) in build and assembly of such kits is irrelevant.

Sure, but that's not an "HID kit".

If the kit involves inserting HID bulbs into an optic designed for filament bulbs, then it's bad, dangerous, illegal, unsafe, etc. -- regardless of if or whether the bulb or the optic is modified.
DS
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

What term is used to refer to them?
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On Sat, 41 Sep 1977, Arif Khokar wrote:

*shrug* Set of HID headlamp assemblies. "HID kit" is a term used specifically to refer to the bulb-only "retrofits".
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

Pfft...
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On Tor, 612 Sao 8675309, Arif Khokar wrote:

Well, what the hey, as long as my system's clock is fubar, I might as well have some fun...
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On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Tiger wrote:

OK, let's see your isoscans, then.
You did "verify the output effect" in a photogoniometric tunnel, right?
Or did you just eyeball it and ignorantly go "Ayup yup, that's jest fine, ahyuck!"

Yeah? What was your Emax, and where was it located? What was your E value at B50L? H-V? Did you do a scan in the 10U-90U region?
C'mon, Tiger, let's have some factual support for your glib and ignorant assertions that HID kits are "fine".
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Two further notes, Tiger-
1) Also state your values at 4D,V. This point virtually always fails badly in HID "retrofits" such as you claim to have done successfully.
2) Although I asked for Emax and other E values, feel free to state Imax and I values instead, if you're more comfortable with luminous intensity rather than illuminance. If you do state E values, remember to include your Dp!
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Daniel J. Stern wrote:

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Sheesh! I am keeping my factory style bulbs, since I don't want to be subject to all of this nonsense...
Marty
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I saw your website and I have read many articles you wrote back then and now... Some article are old... as I see your HID prcing in your article stated $900 to $1300 for the kit... no one sell at that price anymore... more like $300 to $500. You seem to be the independent expert on headlight who has some fancy equipments in your lab.
It is funny how you offers to sell many E-code headlights (Non-DOT) approved headlights.... Beside the foglight offering, those headlight units you sell are not used in modern vehicles... since 1986? You even mentionsd SAE certifications in USA... that doesn't mean anything to DOT or state inspection. It is also funny how modern headlight units no longer state DOT on their headlighte either.
So it makes me wonder... how does this guy make a living out of it... I don't think Phillips, Hella, Bosch or Cibie needs outside consultant on their products... Maybe some car manufacturer may consult you to verify the light output but I seriously doubt it because it is all about bean counting and car style. Maybe DOT does need your service to certify them... I don't know...
The headlight conversion I did is on a BMW projector unit which uses H1 bulb. This unit has separate low and high beam unit. I did not modify the housing at all to fit the bulb. The bulb was already designed with H1 base with the same length of insertion where the regular bulb filatment would be. I have not attempted to convert a reflector headlight and I do see the major problem in aiming.
It would be much more constructive if you simply state major problem instead of being arrogant and bombarding people with technical terms which means nothing to them. After all no one like arrogant people.
Now... back to the original argument. This guy with an OFF ROAD motorcycle... he wanted to improve high headlight... visibility in OFF ROAD nighttime riding in middle of the wood. Do you really think aiming of the headlight is so critical in this situation? Do you really think these off road headlights are OPTIMUMLY designed for best light output? Pitch black condition where obstacles such as a tree branch might knock you off the bike in middle of nowhere.
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Tiger wrote:

He has stated the problem with the "conversion" that you have performed many times in the past. I attempted to restate the problem in laymen's terms. Unfortunately, you refuse to acknowledge the issue.
I'll try my best to put it in terms you can understand:
A headlamp is supposed to produce a beam pattern that's determined by government regulations. These regulations determine the maximum or minimum level "brightness" of light at varying horizontal and vertical positions relative to the axis of the headlamp. Halogen bulbs have filaments that will affect the pattern of light output. Headlamp assemblies designed for halogen bulbs take that pattern into account and produce a beam pattern that has the correct pattern of "brightness" as determined by government regulations. When engineers design headlamps, they use sophisticated and expensive equipment to test beam pattern compliance with government regulations. In other words, it is not possible to just look at the light and tell if it is compliant.
HID capsules do not have filaments and have a different pattern of light output. Because of this differing pattern, headlamp assemblies designed for use with halogen bulbs that have filaments will not work correctly when used with HID capsules. If HID capsules are used, these assemblies will produce a beam pattern that is not in line with government regulations. In other words, certain points where there must be a minimum amount of "brightness" will not have enough light and certain other points where only a certain amount of light is allowed will get too much light.
When this happens, the driver ends up not being able to see things he should while driving, and oncoming traffic ends up blinded by the noncompliant beam pattern.
This is the reason you are not supposed to put HID capsules in headlamp assemblies that are designed for halogen (filament) bulbs.
(My apologies if any part of this "explanation" is factually incorrect).
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On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Arif Khokar wrote:

Hell, I've lost count of the number of times I've put it in layman's terms for him over the past few days. It's not that he *can't* understand, it's that he's clinging to his ignorant opinion and refuses to let facts confuse him. I figured maybe I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and take him at his word that he had evaluated the output of his "retrofitted" headlamps, and so asked for the results of his evaluation. He bleated that I was arrogantly throwing around technical terms that don't mean anything. The fact that these terms (which, really, anyone can look up with a quickie Google search) "don't mean anything" to Tiger tells us everything we need to know (and confirms everything we already knew) about his "evaluation".

Nope, everything was exactly right. I doubt if Tiger will listen.
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And, as has been so ably stated many times, it's not just gov't regs that is the issue here. It's quite clear to many of us that US regs that are designed to illuminate un-lighted overhead signs allow too much "up-light" glare. The US regs *require* more glare than corresponding EU regs. Placing any light source into a US-spec headlight *GUARANTEES* that the glare will be more, and will in fact be dangerous to oncoming drivers. There is no way you can get by that fact, unless, perhaps, you aim your headlights about 10 feet in front of your car.
For instance, all EU HID headlights must have cleaner and leveling systems. No kit other than OEM ones include such features; consequently your conversions will fail not only the lax US regs, they will de facto fail the better EU ones.
Floyd
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On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, fbloogyudsr wrote:

True.
True -- but Tiger's HID bulb "retrofits" fail the ECE beam standards even if cleaning and levelling systems were to be installed.
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fbloogyudsr wrote:

I wonder if Audi is the only manufacturer that has both on their US spec vehicles equipped with HID headlamps.
On the topic of leveling systems, I'm interested in finding out if there's been any improvement in the last 5 years. The ones on my vehicle appear to have about a 10 second delay between a change in slope and adjustment in the headlamp aim.
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On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Arif Khokar wrote:

Yep, they're now using rapid-response, high-speed stepper motors rather than geared rotaries. That said, if there is a 10-second delay on your system with geared rotaries, something's wrong; that's WAY slower than it should be.
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Don't you just turn the handlebars on a motorcycle to aim the headlight?!!
Pete Cowper 1987 300E
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<snipped>
Do you know if Cibi is going to produce a 200mm rectangular CSR lamp (I've got a 300SD with one old Bosch unit on one side and a sealed beam on the otheryuck)?
Thanks,
Tim Delaney
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