Which is why you don't put one type of light source on an assembly designed for another type of light source.
Why not try the following experiment:
Park your vehicle on a level surface such that it's facing the wall and is 25 feet from it. Now, open up your hood and "unlock" the headlamp bulb. Twist it around a bit and watch the pattern of light on the wall. You'll only get the correct pattern when the bulb is locked in place and is in correct alignment. This is because the light output pattern depends on how the bulb filaments are oriented relative to the headlamp assembly.
HID capsules have no filaments and cannot be aligned properly in order to produce the correct beam pattern in an assembly designed for halogen bulbs. That's why you need headlamp assemblies designed for HID capsule light output if you intend to use HIDs on your vehicle. Similarly, a person with HID headlamps cannot use halogen bulbs in a headlamp assembly designed for HID capsules.
You are assuming a virgin HID bulb... bulb that is unshielded. I know what you mean... if you buy the right kit that is designed PROPERLY, then you don't have a problem.
The headlight units that use one bulb for high and low has a problem for HID... in order to make that work only one direction of the light output is controlled for low beam.
Many HID manufacture did know that... they are not just stupid businessmen or women... they have engineers too you know... to combat that problem they put metal shielding on the HID bulb so you have control of the bulb output and aiming.
Halogen bulbs in reflector headlamp assemblies have shields on them as well. That doesn't mean that a shielded HID capsule should be used in its place. The reason behind that is detailed in my previous post.
Look Arif, I know what you are trying to say... yes, there are some kit that is badly designed but not all of them are.
I personally have done the conversion and I have verified the output effect. I did it on a low beam projector beam though... and the light output was very well controlled.
There are technicalities involved... yes, but it doesn't mean the rest of the world have no idea what they are doing with HID.
I'm not saying that all of them are. If a kit includes assemblies with the HID capsules, then theoretically it should work fine. If the kit involves modifying your existing headlamp assemblies (that were orignally designed for halogen bulb light output) so that HID capsules can be inserted in their place, then that's bad design (not to mention illegal).
I am. The "HID kits" this "Tiger" nitwit keeps insisting are fine are the "bulb retrofit" type, and *all* of them are bad, on a conceptual level. The care (or lack thereof) in build and assembly of such kits is irrelevant.
Sure, but that's not an "HID kit".
If the kit involves inserting HID bulbs into an optic designed for filament bulbs, then it's bad, dangerous, illegal, unsafe, etc. -- regardless of if or whether the bulb or the optic is modified.
I saw your website and I have read many articles you wrote back then and now... Some article are old... as I see your HID prcing in your article stated $900 to $1300 for the kit... no one sell at that price anymore... more like $300 to $500. You seem to be the independent expert on headlight who has some fancy equipments in your lab.
It is funny how you offers to sell many E-code headlights (Non-DOT) approved headlights.... Beside the foglight offering, those headlight units you sell are not used in modern vehicles... since 1986? You even mentionsd SAE certifications in USA... that doesn't mean anything to DOT or state inspection. It is also funny how modern headlight units no longer state DOT on their headlighte either.
So it makes me wonder... how does this guy make a living out of it... I don't think Phillips, Hella, Bosch or Cibie needs outside consultant on their products... Maybe some car manufacturer may consult you to verify the light output but I seriously doubt it because it is all about bean counting and car style. Maybe DOT does need your service to certify them... I don't know...
The headlight conversion I did is on a BMW projector unit which uses H1 bulb. This unit has separate low and high beam unit. I did not modify the housing at all to fit the bulb. The bulb was already designed with H1 base with the same length of insertion where the regular bulb filatment would be. I have not attempted to convert a reflector headlight and I do see the major problem in aiming.
It would be much more constructive if you simply state major problem instead of being arrogant and bombarding people with technical terms which means nothing to them. After all no one like arrogant people.
Now... back to the original argument. This guy with an OFF ROAD motorcycle... he wanted to improve high headlight... visibility in OFF ROAD nighttime riding in middle of the wood. Do you really think aiming of the headlight is so critical in this situation? Do you really think these off road headlights are OPTIMUMLY designed for best light output? Pitch black condition where obstacles such as a tree branch might knock you off the bike in middle of nowhere.
He has stated the problem with the "conversion" that you have performed many times in the past. I attempted to restate the problem in laymen's terms. Unfortunately, you refuse to acknowledge the issue.
I'll try my best to put it in terms you can understand:
A headlamp is supposed to produce a beam pattern that's determined by government regulations. These regulations determine the maximum or minimum level "brightness" of light at varying horizontal and vertical positions relative to the axis of the headlamp. Halogen bulbs have filaments that will affect the pattern of light output. Headlamp assemblies designed for halogen bulbs take that pattern into account and produce a beam pattern that has the correct pattern of "brightness" as determined by government regulations. When engineers design headlamps, they use sophisticated and expensive equipment to test beam pattern compliance with government regulations. In other words, it is not possible to just look at the light and tell if it is compliant.
HID capsules do not have filaments and have a different pattern of light output. Because of this differing pattern, headlamp assemblies designed for use with halogen bulbs that have filaments will not work correctly when used with HID capsules. If HID capsules are used, these assemblies will produce a beam pattern that is not in line with government regulations. In other words, certain points where there must be a minimum amount of "brightness" will not have enough light and certain other points where only a certain amount of light is allowed will get too much light.
When this happens, the driver ends up not being able to see things he should while driving, and oncoming traffic ends up blinded by the noncompliant beam pattern.
This is the reason you are not supposed to put HID capsules in headlamp assemblies that are designed for halogen (filament) bulbs.
(My apologies if any part of this "explanation" is factually incorrect).
Hell, I've lost count of the number of times I've put it in layman's terms for him over the past few days. It's not that he *can't* understand, it's that he's clinging to his ignorant opinion and refuses to let facts confuse him. I figured maybe I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and take him at his word that he had evaluated the output of his "retrofitted" headlamps, and so asked for the results of his evaluation. He bleated that I was arrogantly throwing around technical terms that don't mean anything. The fact that these terms (which, really, anyone can look up with a quickie Google search) "don't mean anything" to Tiger tells us everything we need to know (and confirms everything we already knew) about his "evaluation".
Nope, everything was exactly right. I doubt if Tiger will listen.
I have been following this topic, just for educaional purposes and I have a couple of thoughts.
1) Based on my research, these HID kits which allow you to retrofit a High Intensity Discharge bulb into an existing fixture are NOT Approved for on road use and are junk as stated by Daniel and Arif.
2) Daniel knows a lot about headlights, but isn't paying close attention to this group, as if he did he would know that Tiger is the single most helpful individual here to many of us, which doesn't mean he is always right (of course).
3) Most of this discussion is worthless to most of us as it is in some kind of headlight geek code, so as to make it impossible for laymen to understand. Although I think the laymens description that Arif gave was very informative for me.
4) Calling people names doesn't make you right, it only makes you look like a jerk.
OK, maybe he's an expert on every aspect of Mercedes cars *except* the lighting. He can take the rest of the car; I'll take the lighting.
What part of the below is in "headlight geek code"?
Halogen headlamps and HID headlamps require very different optics to produce a safe and effective -- not to mention legal -- beam pattern. How come? Because of the very different characteristics of the two kinds of light source.
A halogen bulb has a cylindrical light source -- the glowing filament. The space immediately surrounding the cylinder of light is completely dark, and so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is along the edges of the cylinder of light. The ends of the filament cylinder fade from bright to dark.
An HID bulb has a crescent-shaped light source -- the arc. It's crescent-shaped because as it passes through the space between the two electrodes, its heat causes it to try to rise. The space immediately surrounding the crescent of light glows in layers...the closer to the crescent of light, the brighter the glow. The ends of the arc crescent are the brightest points, and immediately beyond these points is completely dark, so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is at the ends of the crescent of light.
When designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the characteristics of the light source are *the* driving factor around which everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the light source, you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's eyeglasses -- they may fit on your face OK, but you won't see properly.
And, as has been so ably stated many times, it's not just gov't regs that is the issue here. It's quite clear to many of us that US regs that are designed to illuminate un-lighted overhead signs allow too much "up-light" glare. The US regs *require* more glare than corresponding EU regs. Placing any light source into a US-spec headlight *GUARANTEES* that the glare will be more, and will in fact be dangerous to oncoming drivers. There is no way you can get by that fact, unless, perhaps, you aim your headlights about 10 feet in front of your car.
For instance, all EU HID headlights must have cleaner and leveling systems. No kit other than OEM ones include such features; consequently your conversions will fail not only the lax US regs, they will de facto fail the better EU ones.
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