Re: Are Mercedes Benz overpriced?

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I'm not sure if this is intended to be a statement of fact or a recommendation. In any case my take on this is: if you have new money then buy a Lexus. If you have old money than buy an MB. If you really want a reliable, inexpensive car without frills then buy a Toyota.
h
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Well said ...
And if you have tons of money, buy a Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Bentley, etc.
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H8That wrote:

and if you have genuinely real money then purchase all the outstanding stock of the automaker of your choice.
.
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Dori Schmetterling wrote:

Ugly? Individually designed! ;-))
Juergen
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Dear everyone,
The answer is "YES". I recently sold my C200 year 2K, and bought a Lexus GS300. Not only I got some change in my wallet. I found the GS300 is much powerful, luxury and fully electric than a C-class. The most important is less after-buy trouble. However, honestly, I miss the small turning radius of MB everytime making an U-turn. The dealer also provide a 3-year trouble free guarantee -- They not only repair the car but also responsible for all the inconvenience caused by any mechanical failure.
I can't believe its a Jap car. I am afraid Jap has overtaken German in car industry. :(
Keith
:3f216c4a$0$964$ snipped-for-privacy@news.dial.pipex.com...

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My MB mechanic says that Lexus cars are the very best!
I must agree but they are so ugly sometimes.

a
Bentley,
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: > If you have new money then buy a new Mercedes. If you you have old money : > then buy a used Mercedes, like any car you buy. Tom : > : : I'm not sure if this is intended to be a statement of fact or a : recommendation. In any case my take on this is: if you have new money then : buy a Lexus. If you have old money than buy an MB. If you really want a : reliable, inexpensive car without frills then buy a Toyota.
Just ignore him...he's only got a tv with a keyboard, not even a real computer.
/ramalane
-- +++alt.2600/#hack FAQ (by The Voyager)+++ http://www.hackfaq.org
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&navRoot=/toyota_root&edname=Avensismain&catname=%2ftoyota_root%2fTopNav%2fS ee+the+Range%2fAvensis&zone=Zone+Avensis&menuid'186
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No innovations!?!?!?
What about VVT-i? How about getting over 180bhp out of a 1.8 engine?
What about the Prius? And soon a hybrid Lexus RX?
What about the latest one "knee airbag"?
I am sorry, but I think you are wrong on this one.

Perhaps, but you can't really justify the price of a product based on what it took to produce. It is a consumer decision about which product offers the most for a set amount of money.
The C-class isn't exactly a low volume car either.

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Oliver Keating wrote:

Variable valve technology - a minor improvement.

Clearly a mistake: High revs, much noise etc. pp.

The Prius indeed is intelligent.

Talk about it when it is available.

Another airbag - not bad, but of no importance at all compared to the company which had airbags in their regular line of cars from 1982 on: Yes, that is NOT Toyota!

I am definitely not.
Just to give you an overview of Mercedes activities: (cite on, short version)
The History of Mercedes-Benz Safety
From 1939
First development of safety features in Mercedes-Benz Test Vehicle No. 11: rigid side-impact protection, extremely stiff floor, multi-piece steering column. Made available in 1953 in the Mercedes-Benz 180.
1949
Mercedes-Benz safety door lock patented. The pin and wedge design significantly reduces the likelihood of impact-induced door opening for jamming.
1951
Daimler-Benz develops the first safety car body in the world, which is then produced for the first time in the 180 model.
1959
First impact and roll-over tests. Only tests under realistic conditions lead to better results. In a single year, Daimler-Benz crashed 80 cars to identify safety problems.
The first production vehicle in the world with an occupant friendly interior. Probable impact surfaces in the interior with large contact areas and energy absorbing: large contact surface, upholstered steering wheel hub, upholstered and yielding instrument panel, deformable control knobs and switches, upholstered sun visors, door trim and armrest, window crank with deformable knob, recessed door handles, break-away inside mirror.
1961
Seatbelt anchorages as standard.
1966
Development of a safety strategy leading to systematic safety research at Mercedes-Benz. First significant safety aspects are defined, this leads to the now well known concepts of active and passive safety.
1967
Mercedes-Benz safety steering. The system can depending on impact severity incrementally deform. The dangerous spear effect is reduced. Large surface area on steering wheel hub with deformable center. Telescopic steering column. Steering gear positioned far towards the rear.
1968
Introduction of Mercedes-Benz head restraints. Three-point static seatbelt available as an optional extra. First tests with airbag systems.
From 1969
Systematic investigation and analysis of traffic accidents.
1971
Seat belt buckle attached to seat frame. Three-point inertia-reel seatbelt available as an optional extra.
1971-1974
Concept design and further development of Experimental Safety Vehicles ESF 03, ESF 05, ESF 13, ESF 22 and ESF 24.
1973
Inertia-reel seatbelts and head restraints on the front seats fitted as standard. First Mercedes-Benz offset crash test.
1979
Introduction of offset crash as a realistic internal test procedure.
Introduction of the forked-member design.
Seatbelts on all seats as standard.
Three-stage height adjustment of seatbelts in the S-Class.
1980
Daimler-Benz is the only manufacturer in the world to introduce the driver airbag in the steering wheel and the belt tensioner for the front passenger.
1981
Research car Auto 2000, among other things with integral seats for driver and front passenger (all belt attachments on the seat), integrated child restraint system in the rear and pedestrian-friendly bumper.
1984
Belt tensioners fitted as standard on the front seats.
1987
Presentation of the front passenger airbag, initially for the S-Class, at the Frankfurt Motor Show.
1989
Presentation of the SL sports car with integral front seats and automatic roll-over bar.
1990
The E-Class (W 124 series) scores best marks in the auto motor und sport crash test.
1991
Updated draft of Mercedes-Benz safety strategy. Main target: reduction of the risk of chest injuries in frontal collisions. The S-Class (W 140) sets new safety standards with its restraint systems, crumple zones and passenger cell design.
1992
Anniversary: the one millionth car with airbag system, a 200 E, comes off the assembly line. A ten-year-old Mercedes is crash-tested to prove the airbag's operational reliability. First offset crash against a deformable barrier.
1993
Together with DEKRA, Daimler-Benz develops a high-precision track guidance system for car/car tests.
The driver airbag is standard; the front passenger airbag is available for all model series. The offset crash against the deformable barrier becomes a standard test in the development of new Mercedes-Benz cars.
1994
Review of safety strategy. Focus on compatibility, i.e. protection of the occupants of the other car involved in an accident.
The deformable barrier for offset frontal collisions becomes a major element of a European draft bill.
Integral child safety seats become available first for the C-Class and then for virtually all model series.
Front passenger airbag included in the standard specifications.
1995
Daimler-Benz is the world's first manufacturer to install higher-performance belt tensioners with integrated belt force limiters.
S-Class fitted with side airbags as standards.
1997
Market launch of the A-Class (W 168). With its numerous innovative safety features, it sets new passive safety standards for cars in this category.
All Mercedes-Benz cars are fitted with side airbags as standard.
1998
Introduction of the newly developed window-bag and rear-seat side airbag. The cushion complements the protective effect of the side airbags in the doors. Copyright 1998-2003 DaimlerChrysler. (cite end)
For some other technical things like BAS, EHB or Linguatronic see also http://www.mbspy.com/techexpr.htm

Mercedes can as people buy all they produce despite the high prices (ok, we except the Vaneo here).

Yes, with most people. But there are enogh MB customers who happily pay for better safety.

Compared to some Toyota models it is.
Ok, now it is your turn - Toyota and safety since 1939.
Juergen
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wrote in message

I find it impressive that even their 1.0 litre Yaris has a VVT-i engine.

And very exciting. A sports car is supposed to make noise :)

Yay :)

To say that Toyota is free from innovations?

<snip huge and overwhelming history!>

<feeling a little overwhelmed!>

But people buy stupidly priced handbags, claiming their "quality" is superior. We all know its about image.

The Avensis got a 5 star rating in the Euro-ncap crash tests, matching the C-class. Like I said, the Avensis seems to be able to match or better the C-class on every account and does it for a much cheaper price.

Heh, I am not a mad Toyota fan :)

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Not in production? 30 Citaro busses with fuel cells are currently operated in ten major European cities, one of those is Madrid.
Have a look at http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/news/top/2003/t30505a_e.htm

Juergen did not write "no" innovations, he wrote "without any major" innovations - there is a huge difference and I support this statement.
Chris
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What's the point of most hybrids? They are more complicated, small and take as much a simpler and better Jetaa/Bora TDI or Golf
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High MPG is just a nice side-effect of the current hybrids. (Current hybrids = Honda Insight, Honda Civic Hybrid, Toyota Prius) And you can still get that high MPG with a CVT (advanced automatic) transmission!
The main thing is low emissions.
Even the "worst" of the current hybrids is ULEV (Ultra Low Emission Vehicle). Gets about a 7 on the EPA Pollution score (0=worst, 10=cleanest). Most meet SULEV, and some even the AT-PZEV emissions qualities.
The VW TDIs that you mention only get their high MPG if you get the manual transmission version. In the US, they get an EPA Pollution score of 1. (If you manage to import (the relatively) clean European diesel fuel, or perhaps if you run on pure biodiesel, then the emissions on the US VW TDIs may be better, but on current US diesel fuel (dirty!) the emissions are not good at all.)
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Good point.

Then the US should get with the times, learn how to drive stick and get the better euro type fuel. Why complicate life with this hybrid nonsense? R&D should stick with finding an alternative fuel, not this.
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meant they take less fuel

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That's exactly what came to mind when I read the original post -- the ongoing research and development costs of past and future models are borne across the model lines.
If it takes something like $12 million to develop and introduce one new engine design, think of how many different engines has MB has developed in the last 20 years. It's expensive, and it's something most other car makers don't/won't/can't do.
Did I hear that GM still uses a 1968 engine solely because it's too expensive to develop a replacement? Because its customers don't want to pay for any real design improvements, even if it's a $400 stability control program like ESP? They want cupholders, not a car that's safe on the road.
Some people may be driving MBs out of sheer smugness, the self-satisfaction that the socially insecure need and crave, but I came to admire the research and development of the engines and drivetrains from racing years, and the fact that these 100+ years of design come from a company whose customers travel at extended high Autobahn speeds with an essential need for handling, safety and comfort.
Rugbyguy
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http://www.toyota.co.uk/cgi-bin/toyota/bv/generic_editorial.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0326654073.1058960910@@@@&BV_EngineID chadcilmfijghcfngcfkmdfkidffk.0
Nice, but looks like a Bora/Jetta. Years down the road, it will look dated and ugly, unlike a 124/126
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Just to add a comment about the me-too ness of Toyota, It is very difficult to tell the difference from the rear of a Lexus LS and the E type,especially the w210 with some recent model LS. The main difference is the L in the badge rather than the tri-star.
Now is someone going to say that MG copied the Lexus?
Bob B
Juergen . wrote:

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Nope, the ones you mention are in a totally different league: ugly, austere, and uncomfortable small sedans with whiny 4 cyl engines just meant for having fun on weekends. On the other hand, the Merc is a roomy and refined surface 2 surface missile apt for everyday use, including long trips.
John

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