Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

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You can hear some diesel clatter outside the car, but inside it's much quieter. Although my current cars are petrol I have been in recent diesels and they are remarkably quiet. In once case I could hardly believe it
wasn't petrol. Different ballgame to my 1980 W123 200D.
I am not sure I am ready to jump to diesel with my next car (whenever that might be), but by then there might have been further noticeable progress. Personally I would not say diesel is the ideal answer for everyone, but it's become an increasingly interesting proposition not be swept aside because of old notions about diesel.
DAS --
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

The problem has always been and continues to be .... the fuel (diesel). Syrup in ... chunks out. Metro buses here in southern California (where I live) have been refitted with CNG gas and they are an amazing improvement in terms of exhaust stench and soot. California's CARB (California Air Resources Board) is intent on squeezing the notion of widespread diesel powered passenger cars out of existence. They'll do it too. Regarding diesel mechanical noise, NOBODY (the one or two exceptions notwithstanding) around here will put up with the external clatter if it eminates from a luxury sedan. 1ton pickup trucks.... whole different deal.
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The diesel clatter much quieter than before, like I said, and isn't always obvious at first "hearing". Maybe Californians are such snobs that they won't accept a diesel in a luxury car. That may even have been true here, but READ MY LIPS (well, the pearls of wisdom dripping from my and others' keyboards). Sales of top BMW and Merc cars with diesel engines are relatively high and rising, for whatever reason. Merc has brought out a CLK with 2.7 l diesel engine and one of the participants in this group, living in NL (Netherlands) wrote about it. Inconceivable just a few years ago.
What CARB (appropriate name) does is interesting but does it always set a world trend?
Am not sure what CNG is (but it sounds like the LPG we have here (or, more precisely, in NL and other countries), a form of liquefied gas. Yes, very clean as it;s pure CHO. The UK government gives a small subsidy for conversions but it isn't widespread because there are few filling stations.
Whacking big tank in the boot/trunk taking up space and 20% greater fuel consumption. Right now the fuel is cheap but you can bet your bottom dollar that taxes will be piled on if it becomes widely used (outside the US anyway).
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WE have endured smoking, clattering, low performance diesel engines in luxury cars both foreign and domestic. We are DONE with that experiment. Snobs? Sure. Diesel is not a symbol of "enilightened green" here, nor should it be anywhere else. ;-) Oil in ... chunks out.
Here's a handy emission control history for both California and the US. http://www.arb.ca.gov/html/brochure/history.htm
Another for CARB in general: http://www.arb.ca.gov/html/fslist.htm
CARB and EPA started and lead Europe in emission legislation. But of course, divergent paths have developed due to economic and political influences. ;-)
CNG = Compressed Natural Gas http://www.est.org.uk/est_fuel/cng_fuel.html
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Philip ( snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net.invalid) wrote:

DaimlerChrysler diesels passed very strict 2007 EPA emissions levels this summer, which require a diesel to run almost as clean as gasoline engines. The engines are currently undergoing durability tests at EPA for no degradation for 10 years or 150,000 miles.
Wolfgang
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In wrote:

Wolfgang.... the word I meant to use was "led".... past tense. I spelled correctly the word I didn't mean to use. Sorry.
Diesel, not matter how you spiff them up are a tough sell here in southern California for the reasons I have already mentioned.
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snipped-for-privacy@93.usenet.us.com wrote in message wrote:

Check your facts straight, for EPA has always mandated that Diesel engines emit as much pollutants as gas engines. As a matter of fact, it never distinguished engines by its fuel, only by its application.
If MB is developing Diesel engines that will finaly be as clean as gas engines, excellent. But right now they emit more unhealthy pollutants than gas engines, namely NOx and particulates.
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Neo ( snipped-for-privacy@mailandnews.com) wrote:

No, check your facts. Just one example: Under EPA Tier 1 for passenger cars FTP 75, its for 0.4 g NOx for gas and 1.0 g NOx for diesel.
But in 2007 the limits for gas and diesel will be the same. And as I said previously, DaimlerChrysler's diesels passed those very strict 2007 limits in testing performed by the EPA this summer.
Wolfgang
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snipped-for-privacy@93.usenet.us.com wrote in message

OK, thanks for the clarification.

I still don't see Americans setting for the lower performance and smoothness of Diesel engines though...
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passenger
as I

strict 2007

When it comes to comparing like engines, consider BMW diesel and petrol 3.0 straight sixes. The diesel wins on all counts bar outright horsepower. It wins the torque race by a very considerable margin. Inside the car it is silent and smooth. Outside the car, it takes an experienced ear to tell which engine is installed. Mercedes is similar though slightly more cold idle engine clatter externally.
Huw
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As I said before, it only looks good on paper. The Diesel version is not slower in accelaration but also in passing. Yet it costs almost 10% more...
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outright
is
BMW 530SE petrol 30955 diesel 530SE 30950
Petrol 231hp diesel218hp
petrol 221lbsft@ 3500erpm diesel a massive 369@ 2000
petrol 0/60 6.9sec diesel 7.1sec.
petrol max 155mph diesel 152mph
30 to 70mph figures in gear not known but experience indicates that the diesels mid range torque will actually convert to a significant advantage in its favour.
Petrol 29.7mpUKg diesel 41mpUKgallon combined average consumption. Both absolutely refined driving experience.
Just driven the new 530D SE today. Super car with vast performance. Not sure about the I-Drive, but the new park sensors with dash display is novel.
What planet are you on exactly?
Huw
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In

Is the "petrol" engine available with a turbocharger or ... the diesel without a turbocharger?
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that
significant
consumption.
performance.
I cannot think of any diesels without a turbocharger in current production. It is no more significant than asking whether the petrol engine has spark plugs. From the above you will see that it has no significance to purchase price or running cost. When comparisons are made, how it generates its power is a red herring or straw man. The figures speak for themselves.
Huw
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Huw wrote:

Sounds like Huw is on the right track there. Latest common rail diesel's can ah forget it let em find out for themselves. :-) -- Regards Dan.
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In

Disagree. You and I BOTH know what happens to torque output of either engine when fitted with a turbocharger. Fair comparison is to fit equal displacement engines with turbos and retune accordingly or to have both naturally aspirated. Of course we know what happens there! So far as purchase price is affected, you and I also know there are innumerable ways to spread costs in order to meet a target retail price.
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to
Straw man. The figures speak for themselves. How it produces the power is totally unimportant. The engines are from the same family with the same displacement fitted to the same model cars and cost approximately the same so the comparison cannot be more valid.
Which petrol engine in the BMW range has a turbo and which diesel has not? The turbo is a feature of all modern car diesels just as much as high pressure direct injection with pilot injection and full authority electronic fly-by wire.
Huw
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In

Well then if a turbo is an unimportant matter then ... take it off the diesel. >:-) The difference between diesel and gasoline should be ONLY that fact with all else being equal. A turbo's effect has to be enjoyed by both or neither for a valid comparison. I'm not letting my bias have sway on this point.

BMW has traditionally wrinkled up their corporate nose at turbocharging gasoline engines. Has that changed "over there?"
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should
to
letting
There are few if any European diesels in production without a turbo. It is as much a part of a modern diesel engine as a high pressure fuel system. A diesel engine is not a petrol engine, get over it. We are not comparing the specific power output per cubic inch of capacity here, just two engines on different fuel from the same manufacturer which a consumer will choose against each other. Many of the purchasers of the diesel will not even be aware that a turbo is fitted. Boasting of a turbo has long gone because it is there on all diesels except one, maybe a small Renault IIRC.

Who cares if an engine has a turbo or not these days? Consumers buy cars with engines which provide the power output and performance they want, whether it has a turbo or not. BMW and almost all manufacturers seldom mention whether an engine is turbocharged and never do with a diesel, because they all have them. It is no more unusual than an air cleaner. It is a means to an end. It is a part of the engine. It is completely irrelevant to the comparison of the two engines. It is a diesel engine and modern diesels have turbo's fitted in the price. They are not available without any more than a petrol engine is available without a spark ignition system. Get it now?
Huw
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In

Everybody who has the -option- of buying with or without. Duh.

Do you wish to gloss over my earlier / innocent inquiry about BMW's traditional view of turbos on gasoline? There are many models from all Euro manufacturers that are not allowed here due to their excessive emissions or for lack of market.
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