Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

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Right now the fraction of petrol-engined cars turbocharged is small, a point made earlier.
This might change, but we are talking NOW.
DAS --

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Yes, but how that power is available does. An engine whose power over RPM increases logarithmically is hardly a joy to drive...
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over
You clearly do not understand the power and torque curves and have absolutely not driven a diesel and petrol BMW back to back as I have. Most people who buy these cars try both petrol and diesel versions. Very many now choose the diesel. About half do not. The performance of cars fitted with modern diesels is amazing, to the point that very many 'sport' and Coupe and drop tops are now fitted with diesels at an increasing rate.
Huw
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Take your choice of car:
A) torque engine with low limit maximum rev capability with only 3 or 4 gears? (A luxury car that insulates the driver from driving)
B) horsepower engine with a high limit maximum rev capability and 4-6 gears? (A sports oriented car that communicates with the driving experience).
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4-6
The BMW has a choice of six speed automatic or manual transmissions with Sport packs available with all engines. Many sports cars, coupes and convertibles are now fitted with diesels. Mercedes also fit them amongst others.
Huw
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That's nice. What is the typical RPM redline for these diesels? What is the typical RPM spacing between gears when shifted at redline?
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transmissions
Why should this matter? Sufficient to say that the diesel engine is the engine of choice for many people who like the low down torque and acceleration for overtaking. Look at the figures I gave you for the performance of the BMW again if you are not convinced. It is accepted and shown by all magazines that have tested them that in real life driving the diesel is the most flexible and fastest, and that stands even for the 185hp version against the present output petrol. It's the torque that does it.
Huw
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Huw wrote:

The Alpine D10 says it all for the Steyr-BMW diesel engine. Most people have an inferior complex with the latest diesel engines. The only problem with diesel engines is the narrow band of HP/KW but they usually have a broad band of usable torque. The old diesel engines just made it but the latest they are really proving themselves in the future.
-- Regards Dan.
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No, typical Diesel engines loose steam quickly right after the peak torque RPM. The torque curve of most Diesel engines is close to a square triangle, unlike most gas engines.
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usually
made it

Rubbish. These engines spin up past their peak power point easily and smoothly. The torque curve is indeed rather peaky but the peak is very high indeed in comparison to equivalent power petrol engines. In other words they have a comparatively high 'torque rise'. This torque rise ensures that power is high at low and high revs. Not quite, but almost, 'constant power' across the rev range. This feature is not as pronounced as in medium diesels but nevertheless explains the high mid range 'in-gear' performance of modern diesels.
Huw
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Yeah, right. That's not what I noticed in the Scenic 1.9 TDi I rented last time I was in Europe...

True.
No, it doesn't. Diesel may do well in heavy traffic or urban traffic, but on the highway they they are dead slow.

The ideal torque curve is flat, that's what every engine designer looks for. The Diesel is just not friendly to manipulations of its torque curve due to its slow combustion.
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and
rented
rise
traffic,
Here speaks the voice of nil or outdated experience OLO.

as
mid
Not true.
The Diesel is just not friendly to manipulations of its

Absolute rubbish. It is fairly obvious that you do not understand the relationship between the power and torque curves. A flat torque curve will ensure an engine that has little resistance to increasing load and which has high power at high revs and a steady, if not linear, decline in power with declining revs. This is good for top end performance but is far from being a 'pulling' or torquey engine and may be a bit peaky at the extreme. In contrast, what we do not want, but historically sometimes got, from a diesel engine is a torque curve that drops off a cliff below the point of maximum torque. This has, of course, been almost totally eliminated from the modern diesel by high pressure injection [partly] and full authority injection control, but mostly by the 'variable nozzle' turbochargers now almost universally fitted. There is one exception which I have tried that, despite all the technology, does have somewhat of a delay accelerating from idle under load. This is the 2.2litre Mercedes engine which otherwise goes like a bat out of Hell.
Huw
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Now that's interesting maths. Are we beyond infinity here?
DAS --
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In

For the same reason Indy and NASCAR engines run up to 10k rpm and have LOTs of gear ratios. To get torque. When an engine can continue to produce "work" at ever higher RPMs, torque multiplication can be had via the gearbox.

Sufficient for those who drive in a relaxed mode or with an automatic transmission mated to a very low stall speed torque converter.

BMW has done an admirable job, no question. Have the UK magazines done side by side performance tests of specific models that differ only in being diesel vs. gasoline? The irony to me (I'm laughing) is "here" in status land, we went thru a phase where Mercedes diesels in high end luxury cares was considered a status symbol. This was in the early 1980's. We grew out of it. LOL. CARB, SouthernCaliforniaAirQualityManagement, and EPA brought the "enlightened" back to "green" from their former "fuel consumption consciousness." Now the same people are lining up in droves to buy Prius and Honda hybrid.
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Toque curve is of no significance, right?

Or for people who think that they save more running Diesel?

Which show the Diesel version slower than the gas version?

That's not what your quotes showed...

Torque peaking at 1500RPM that declines to half its peak at just 3000RPM is hardly something to celebrate...
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BRAVO, Neo!
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Please see my reply to Neo ROTFLMAO
Huw
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Huw wrote:

And here is where I leave this argument. :-)
-- Regards Dan.
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It may surprise you that I study and have studied more torque curves than you have probably had hot dinners. I have probably owned and do own or operate a greater variety of vehicles, both petrol and diesel than you could imagine. For you to suggest that the diesels torque curve and its position in a scale is somehow defficient compared to petrol engines is laughable. This is precisely the reason that the diesel 3.0 BMW engine trounces the 3.0 BMW petrol engine even with Valvetronic enhancement.

and
Of course. Most people who have tried them choose diesel.

In a 0-60 drag it is oh so slightly slower. In gear or in the mid range it is significanty faster which is why the diesel version feels so much better to drive. Normal driving is not done by dropping the clutch at high revs and snatching gears to hit 60 but even there the diesel is only a fraction behind despite the lower rev range.

stands
The latest version has not been tested for in-gear mid range accelleration by the magazine. However the 320 has been tested and the 30-70 time for the petrol is 9.6 seconds and the diesel is 9.3 seconds. The new generation 3.0 diesel has a more pronounced advantage reportedly but the actual figures are not available yet.

The peak torque is at 2000erpm. You may know that torque is a measure of the twisting force on a shaft and is read for an engine from the high rev side of a chart downwards. This is why the toque rise [looking right to left] is measured and not a torque fall [looking left to right]. A high torque rise means that the twisting moment on the shaft increases as revs fall and therefore the resistance to the revs actually falling rises as revs fall. In other words the engines hang on to loads to an extraordinary degree. In other words, they are 'torquey' engines.
I hope this has been educational for you LOL
Huw
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So many words without saying anything about facts, just your own opinion about yourself...

Trounces??? Don't you think that it's disputable?

I doubt it. I've seen several fads come and go and the rise of Diesels in Europe looks like them, smells like them and behaves like them. Time may prove me wrong, but so far it's been a text-book fad.

Only when accelerating from a as slow speed as 30, for if accelerating from 50 it's a slug...

I've said it before: Diesel is the only way for Europeans to access to a high-torque engine without having to sell their first-born to slavery...

As I said, from a slow speed. Heck, one of my cars with this engine (http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/engines/gmpow/l36_curves.htm ) is faster than my other car with this one (
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/engines/gmpow/images/lx5curve.jpg ) around town, even being 200lbs heavier, but on the highway the story is quite different. So, figures don't lie, but don't tell the whole story. The story happens between idle and red-line and the story line is called "torque curve".

Your explanation finishes with a non-sequitur...

You had a Physics test at high school today? :-D
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