Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

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1st off, car Diesel engines are not nearly as tough as those used in commercial applications. Because of the higher pressures, they're usually built with thicker walls, but it only adds to the weight.
But if you keep reading, the sub topics, you'll notice that Diesel is also responsible for the nastiest emissions...
Diesel is more efficient not much because of the fuel itself, but mostly because of its compression ratio. Direct-injection gas engines can use higher compression ratios and get a fuel consumption within 10% of Diesel, while retaining the simplicity and performance of conventional gas engines (case in point, Audi A4 2.0 FSI and 1.9 TDI on the highway). And that without stratified charge, when it would be able to achieve the same in mixed driving as well (as the A2 1.6 FSI does)...
So I disagree with you, Diesel future looks bleak in cars. It'll be remembered as passing, sad fad...
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durability -.."

Car diesel engines are commonly used in commercial applications. Mercedes use the full car range in commercial cargo vans. As far as weight goes, the soon-to-be-launched Ford/PSA V6 CGI block 2.7litre V6, which will find its first application in Jaguar and Land Rover products, is rated at 202hp and 440Nm from an injection system running at 1650bar. It will be produced at the rate of 150,000 per year to start with.
It weighs just 202kgs.

is
engines
I have not heard of any petrol engine which comes anywhere near 200g/kW/h. Not within 25% of it. Perhaps you have examples, because I certainly don't.
while retaining the simplicity and performance of

be
Since it has been an expanding market since the early 1960's and in many European countries it now accounts for 50% of the market and it is about to expand into the US, then it hardly a fad.
Huw
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Maybe MB's, but not BMW's and others'. This is more of an exception that confirms the generalization I made.

JUST 202Kg for a 2.7 V6???

As I said, DIRECT-INJECTION gas engines, which there are only a few examples of.

It really lingered at about 15 to 20% until the very late '90s, when it sky rocketed to the current 50% and more in the next few years. Considering how fast it's popularity grew, a text-book fad, just like SUVs in the US and to a lesser extent in Europe as well.

This is wishful thinking. Just look at the sales of the Diesel Beetle and Jetta relative to their gas counter-parts in the US and you'll understand that it's nothing but a niche that has no future. FYI, the best selling VW in the US is the V6 Jetta...
The only market in which Diesel is expected to grow in popularity is in full-size pick-ups and SUVs, which are often used for towing.
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BMW do not make commercial vehicles but their engines are used in heavy duty applications such as Range Rover.
and others'. This is more of an exception

All PSA advanced diesels, Fiat, Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Renaut, VW and other manufacturers engines are used in commercial vehicles. BMW is fairly unique AFAIK.
Again I have to ask why your experience appears so limited?

block
Land
system
Yes, that is exceptionally light for a cast iron block engine and comporable with most alloy engines.

because I

Again I have to point out that there are neumorous examples of direct injection petrol engines now on the market. An example is the Audi 2.0FSI with 35mpg average. The 130 TDi exceeds 50mpg. Both are 130hp engines. Maybe you have a better example LOL?

in
like
At which point does a fad turn into a trend?

Beetle
the
Arab fuel is cheap in the US so of course the V6 will sell well because fuel is a low factor in the total running cost. Your fuel is also inexcuseably dirty which produces dirty diesel exhausts and prevents the very latest engines being marketed to advantage. There is also very little choice yet in the US which stifles growth. It is well known that the fuel is kept dirty so that US manufacturers are not swamped with advanced imports of economical engines which would effect both domestic vehicle manufacturers volume and credibility while lowering overall fuel consumption, out of which Big Oil takes a percentage. It just wouldn't do, would it?

We shall see.
Huw
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snipped-for-privacy@mailandnews.com (Neo) wrote in message

According to Audi, the FSI gets 51MPG on the highway and the TDI, 61MPG. So, yes, my mistake, within 15%, not 10%.
Is this the point you wanted to make? Fine, pick any number between 1 and 10 and it'll be only yours, forever.
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

In context:
"To take advantage of the best attributes of diesels -- fuel efficiency and durability -- -while protecting public health-, EPA, with full support of the Bush Administration, has put in place a number of programs, which together will result in the most dramatic improvement in air quality since the catalytic converter was first introduced a quarter century ago."
This does NOT mean that diesel and diesel fuel is The Answer".... only that efficiency and durability are the attributes most desireable.
So, what's your point, DAS?
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I never said that diesel is "The Answer" (to life, the universe and Everything, or motoring). Here I was merely pointing out that the EPA also recognises that diesel has particular advantages.
I did read the rest of the page, of course, but I didn't think I was pulling the EPA remarks out of context by quoting only a few words. Diesel engines as used in Europe (together with the low-sulfur fuel) are already very clean and getting more so. BTW, as an aside, some years ago I read of a study in Germany that tried to determine the cause of many trees dying in southern Germany. Emission monitors were placed by the roadside of motorways and 1 m away. Interestingly, no significant amounts of toxins were found 1 m away. The cause of death of the trees was probably 'acid rain' which had nothing to do with car emissions.
The wholesale rejection of diesel engines (for cars) by some of the contributors here is fine as an opinion, but not supported what is actually happening. Whether diesel is a passing fad...well, we'll see.
DAS --
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In being of bellicose mind

The EPA stated there are two attributes of diesel that EPA wishes to preserve in future engines. There is no implication that -diesel- is the best embodyment for passenger cars. California Air Resources Board (CARB) has a lot to say about the matter of diesel too and agrees.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg13n1-kulp.html "The most recent scientific results from the forests of Germany are consistent with the conclusion that acid rain is not a primary factor in the various types of regional decline in tree species."
http://www.policyalmanac.org/environment/archive/acid_rain.shtml "Scientists discovered, and have confirmed, that sulfur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx) are the primary causes of acid rain. In the US, About 2/3 of all SO2 and 1/4 of all NOx comes from electric power generation that relies on burning fossil fuels like coal."

Perhaps you didn't know that back in '98 or '99 that my state of California banned new diesel car sales for one year due to .... emissions. It's not just the oil burner technology, it is the fuel we have (though at this time California has uniquely low sulfur diesel compaired to the rest of the US). We (the USA) have had a parade of foul examples of diesel cars both domestic and foreign over the past 30+ years and we're pretty much jaded toward the subject of widespread "European-like passenger car diesels.
--
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Ah, but California's Governorship is now in the pockets of the Republicans, who are in the pockets of the oil industry.
I don't think CARB will be getting tough on anyone anytime soon.
--Dan
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

But let us not forget the AlGore/Oxydental PETROLEUM connection as but one example of Dems being in a petroleum pocket. LOL. Of course we shouldn't mention WHO is in the hip pocket of the TRIAL LAWYERS. ;-)

Governorship not withstanding, the rest of CA legislature is solidly socialist. Big Petrol contributes to whomever promises the biggest bang for the buck. If CARB new standards get pushed back.... that would be okay with me especially as an economic stimulus.
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See below.
DAS --
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. Whether diesel is a passing fad...well, we'll see.
In the grand scheme of things, diesel will be no more, or less, a passing fad than any other oil based energy. One thing is for sure, it can only gain market share in the US in the medium term.
Huw
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In wrote

Thank God increasing diesel market share to any significant degree is NOT for sure.
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wrote

is
For most of the USA it is a good bet that it will increase significantly as crude oil becomes a premium product and efficiency becomes somewhat important to you. The good news is that modern diesels are sporty, torquey, economical, clean, refined and somewhat superior to a raft of petrol engines. You may bury your head in the sand, somewhat like an Ostrich, but it is inevitable. The big US manufacturers are investing huge amounts of money in diesel technology, far in excess of hybrid technology, though the best results will likely be achieved by hybrid diesels or CNG in intensive urban environments.
Huw
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Will it? Is that so certain the same has been said 30 years ago and nothing like such has materialized?

Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Here you display your ignorance. GM alone is investing over $1 billion in hybrids, and zilch in Diesels, except to keep Opel and Saab running, but with no plans for Diesel engines for the US car market...
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efficiency
somewhat
intensive
Saab
market...
It does not need plans because the diesels are an ongoing project from itsy bitsy ones to 3.0V6 courtesy of Isuzu. Are you aware that GM has completely ditched its dedicated hybrid research and development program? It seems not. Keep up with the latest news. It seems probable that GM will now buy in hybrid technology if they ever need to. Huw
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In

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/04/25/BA21082.DTL
Seems California CARB and SCAQMD and EPA have other ideas
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/road_to_future/adv_te ch_vehicles/tomorrows_hybrids/hybrid_power_010603.html
"For the mid-term picture stretching from mid-decade into the next, GM is putting its considerable resources into affordable and effective hybrid technologies, as announced today. And for the long-term, GM has demonstrated its vision of the future with the Hy-Wire concept and the potential of the hydrogen economy and fuel cells as the ultimate answer."
(has this changed recently?)
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As I said, for applications in Opel and Saab. That's a too small engine for an American mid-size sedan.

Let's hear straight from the horse's mouth: http://www.gm.com/company/careers/career_paths/rnd/nws_030503.html , http://www.gm.com/company/careers/career_paths/rnd/nws_081402.html , http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/300_hybrids/fact_sheets.html , http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/100_news/bibedum_092503.html , etc.
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In

I agree with Neo (hope he's right! LOL) These links might be interesting: http://www.greendieseltechnology.com/news110.html http://www.arifleet.com/efnews/EFBa3-8.htm#S6
http://www.arifleet.com/efnews/EFBa3-8.htm#S7 On July 24, 2003 the California Air Resources Board (CARB) passed a new rule that will dramatically lower diesel emission levels in the state. The new standards will require a more than 95 percent reduction in the amount of sulfur in diesel fuel beginning in 2006. The standards will bring diesel sulfur content down to 15 parts per million (PPM) from the current level of about 140 PPM. By doing so, sulfur oxide emissions will be reduced by about 6.4 tons per day. In addition, particulate matter emissions will decrease by about .6 tons per day.
Similar Federal diesel regulations will go into effect nationally beginning in 2007. However, California's rule will apply to fuel sold for both on-road and off-road vehicles, while the federal standards only affect on-road diesel vehicles.
CARB estimates that the cost of diesel will increase anywhere between one and three cents per gallon in California. The national rules are expected to add as much as four to five cents to a gallon. CARB said California's costs are lower because several of the state's refineries already have much of the equipment needed to meet the new standards.
http://www.arifleet.com/efnews/EFBa3-8.htm#S6 FEDEX is about to start using GM's HYDROGEN fuel cell delivery cars! What? Not diesel?
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But less of other unhealthy pollutants like carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons.
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