Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

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wrote:


Not to mention highly toxic and polluting MTBE [methyl tertiary butyl ether] and well known carcinogen, Benzene. The pollutants in modern low NOx and particulate diesels running ultra low sulphur diesel almost pales into insignificance in comparison. The exhaust from these diesel engines is almost odourless, as you know.
It is estimated that two million out of six million fuel station tanks in the US leak petrol into the ground. 1500 public American water supplies are polluted with MTBE and Benzene. It will cost at least $141 billion Dollars to clean up. Normally the polluter would pay but even considering the clean alternative to MTBE, which was available from the beginning, Big Oil has exerted pressure on the powers that be and 'persuaded' [is that the same as 'bribed'?] them that the American taxpayer should pay for their mess.
All this sound so familiar to those who knew about the lead scandal and how unnecessary, indeed criminal, was its inclusion combined with the brainwashing of citizens to accept, even demand, its continued and totally unnecessary use.
Huw
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In wrote:

Those are fuel related .... not inherent to spark ignition engines. How does modern diesel exhaust (ahead of any scrubber or catalyst) compare to a spark ignition engine on CNG?

Sadly.... We the Governed in California trusted the oxygenate decision up to the Unqualifed Elected ... same people who got us into the electricity mess.

Have you had your cup of Ethyl today? ;-)
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wrote:

Neither of those pollutants are present to any measurable extent in diesel fuel. Of course they are fuel related LOL. We are talking about the pollution of two fuels. Why would you or anyone be concerned with gas content before the exhaust exit any more than they would care about the same in a petrol engine?

You can make light of it if you like but you know that I am correct in the content of my post.
Huw
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In

MTBE and benzene are used as oxgenates. California is quickly phasing out both in favor of .... who knows what, for sure.

CARB cares as part of their certification for new vehicle sales in California. The EPA also cares what happens in the event of catalyst removal by the owner or catalyst failure. This happens with cars like Honda Civics (kids!). The OBD-II emissions control systems in our 1995+ cars have an O2 sensor before the catalyst and an Air/fuel sensor after the catalyst which .... when a threshold level of catalyst performance deterioration occurs, will kick on the MIL. In California, when the MIL is ON, you FAIL your biannual smog test on the spot and are prevented from renewing your vehicle registration until the problem is corrected. But you can drive around with only one working brake light, a cracked windshield, nearly bald tires, no wiper blades, and a big dent in your quarter panel where the gas door is. (Arghh)
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Because MTBE is a government mandate ADDITIVE to gas in SOME states!
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AFAIK it is not necessary in as much as acceptable alternatives exist. Whatever, it does not detract from the fact that it is a significant pollutant.
Huw
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But it's not intrinsic to gasoline. It's a pollutant enviro-nuts wanted to strife pollution, go figure... A pen mandated it, a pen can get rid of it. Then, where does your argument go?
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In

More than a pen is bringing down the MTBE curtain:
http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82%257E10834%257E671308 , 00.html
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Even better. I've never seen the state's pen solve something without creating something else worse than what it proposed to solve... ;-)
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In

The Rule of Unintended Consequences.
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I am dealing with how things are. American diesel fuel is unacceptably dirty compared with the fuel available in most of the developed World. Most of the developed World's new generation diesels are clean running and getting very much cleaner in the short term but need the clean fuel available in most civilised areas to provide this advantage. That your oil companies have dragged their feet in this area and in others should be a major source of embarrassment. That Europe blindly follow the US in using these additives in petrol is our embarrassment.
Huw
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

Recall when I quoted "As California goes, so goes the nation"?? "We" reach overseas too! LOL Can I interest you in a Prius or a Honda hybrid? LOL
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Hogwash. It's got the same sulfur content as EU, 500ppm. Yes, Sweden has one at 10ppm and so does the UK for a few big urban areas, but that's BECAUSE of the high percentage of Diesel cars. IOW, it's part of the problem.

Weren't you saying "how things are", but now talks of a hypothetical future?

Which oil company of ours? Shell, Exxon?

No, it's because they're not the product of devilish executives, but the conclusion of cost-concious engineers on both sides of the Atlantic. Believe me, there's no "oil conspiracy", Mulder... :-)
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You are plain wrong. No beating about the bush, totally wrong.

But that *is* how things are. These engines run on low sulphur fuel in Europe and that is here and now.

Shell is not one of yours. It does have refineries in the US which get away with lower quality standards than elsewhere and that is indisputable.

Again you are an apologist and propagandist for the oil companies. Either that or you actually believe what you print LOL.
Huw
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Please, pretend to be someone with more facts than opinions and point out where...

If they're going to be like that "in the short term", they're not how things are...

You make statements with a lot of assumptions that don't stand to even an examinations from afar. For instance, prove that the quality stadards in the US are lower than elsewhere...

So, denying an oil-industry conspiracy to being an apologist and propagandist? Statements like that say a lot about your intellectual honesty...
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Can you not read?

I have posted figures elswhere. Look them up yourself for I am not going to do your work for you.

So again you fail to deny. No need for me to say any more. Readers are generally not of low intelligence and can make their own minds up.
Huw
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I'm sure they will. Most of them have an average IQ and can grasp that not denying is not the same as confirming.
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This is NOT gas, it's an additive that the environmentalists pushed for and now backfires. So much for good intentions... :-P

Maybe, but even ultra-low S Diesel emits more NOx and particulates than gas engines.

And if they carried Diesel, how would it be different? What does Diesel or gas have to do with it?

When the government mandates MTBE, why should those who followed the law be sued?

You mean the lead that was used in gas since the early 20s all over the world and which was phased out in the early 70s in the US and only in the early 90s in Europe?
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It is not the additive of choice for anyone apart from the petroleum industry. It is in the fuel and it is a significant pollutant and leachate. Accept it with grace.

Not significantly so for long.

Diesel fuel does not leach and migrate in the same way that MTBE laced fuel with highly carcinogenic Benzine does. There is absolutely NO safe level of either of those two pollutants.

They mandated oxygenates. The fuel industry made sure that oil based MTBE was mandated despite their knowledge of the risks, rather than non polluting methanol or other alternatives. Why are you an apologist for an industry that has been caught screwing the US public many times?

Yes that is the one. Its use was not needed and a scandal of huge proportions, just as the use of MTBE has been for the last 20 years.
Huw
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Ah, yes, the mighty oil industry... It only takes a couple of neurons to go to the Internet and find out that the value, revenue and profits from the oil industry is at its lowest. Yet, Cassandras cry about its "dark power"...

Oh, boy. When did you forget that you said that gas is bad because it has MTBE? Does gas in Europe have MTBE too?

Sure, right around the corner... Meanwhile, let's buy more and more Diesel cars, in the future they'll be better... Pitiful...

There's no acceptable safe level of particulates Diesel cars emit.

Methanol IS polluting and is extracted from natural gas in refineries. How dumb the dark powers of the mighty oil industry are, huh?

I defend truth. I don't like any industry in particular, but can't stand at the lies spread about any as you do.

Not needed??? So it was added just to poison us not to address any technical probelm with full knowledge of its intoxication mechanism from tail pipes to people? Go and do some research about it before trying to demonize an industry! For starters, try items 4.3 and 4.6 in http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/ and get out of your ignorance and self-righteousness. There, you'll notice that it took the US just 10 years between the realization of lead toxicity and its being phased out, whereas it took the hypocrite Europeans over 30 years.

I agree, oxygenates have not been conclusevily proved to reduce pollution in modern, closed-loop fuel-injection engines.
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