Atten: DanTXD

Watched it :)

Was quite cool how the 206 battered the 205 :D And as you were proving that old cars were better than new overall, it means the 206 180 is better than the 205 GTi, and the Mk3 MR2 is better than the Mk1 MR2, even though overall older cars are better. I'm happy with that :)

Pah, straight lines are for girls!

Hey, i didn't choose the method of proving which was better, Remus did :)

Well we were talking bhp so straight line speed seemed appropriate (plus I couldnt find anything else lol!).

It's not really fair. The Peugeot 205 and 206 GTIs are quite different. The 206 is just any other quick hatchback. The 205 invites you to push harder in a way that the 206 just doesn't.

'Course, when you screw up, that amazing feedback and response that you get from the 205 just shuts up! The 206's funky electronics try to prevent it from happening in the first place.

Better car? Maybe the 206. Better motorway cruiser? Probably the 206. Better track day / Scotland mountain road car? The 205.

I still haven't figured out how ESD or whatever works with ABS, they seem self defeating. How is it going to save anyone from lift-off oversteer? Back end lets go, if ESD applies front brakes it gets worse so ESD must apply rear brakes, wheels are already sliding so they lock ABS cuts in - brakes off. Or is it supposed to see the corner that you are going into to fast and apply the back brakes before you have panicked and lifted off? But rear brake application still causes forward mass transfer like lifting off and the ABS may still cut in. If it's not to save you from lift off oversteer it would seem to encourage people to go though corners too fast making lift off even more likely.

It brakes individual wheels rather than a pair, so if the tail is swinging wide it'll brake whatever wheels it feels it needs to. But, yes, it uses the ABS if it needs to - but usually it won't.

Systems also observe the driver to understand what he or she wants to do with the vehicle. So I suppose there's almost a level of anticipation. It'll anticipate the skid before it happens 'cos it knows when you're given it some steering lock with no foot input but it won't anticipate the corner.

I don't pretend to understand how the different vectors and accelerations work but as I'm led to believe, the most complicated aspect of it is hooking all the sensors up. The system calculates how much the car _should_ be turning and measures how much it _is_ turning. If there's a difference, then it does funky stuff to stop it from happening.

There are only three manufacturers of stability control suites in the world and as I understand, they all work in the same way. Oversteer when going left makes the front right wheel brake.

Naturally, whilst the car manufacturer buys an off the shelf unit, it is then tweaked for the car. BMWs will still oversteer, Mercedes don't, and worse if you switch it off and do something stupid, the system turns itself on, an arm comes out and then slaps you on the wrist. :)

Around one third of cars sold un Europe use it these days.

On most of the cars where I've experienced it, you don't really feel it kicking in unless you're doing something really _really_ stupid on a wet road. They stop it before it happens...

She did. Now we both do. :)

Back then I spotted her potential. It took four years for her to overtake me in the earnings stake. Now she's the main earner.

And she likes V8s.

And I get to spend her money*...

:)

What I need (and maybe you too!) is a garage or bigger garden where i can store a 2nd car :) Then i can have my R5 GTT :D

No no, it brakes *individual* wheels. Let's say you lose the back end, so you begin to pivot in a clockwise direction. You're basically pivoting around the front-right wheel. So the front-left wheel is moving faster - so if you brake it, it arrests the pivot. You can do the same with the rear wheel(s).

Also remember that it knows what you're doing with the steering wheel. If the wheel is turned right, and the car is travelling straight (ie, you're understeering) on (the yaw sensors tell it where it's going), then it will apply the brakes to the right-hand wheels, to make the car go where you're telling it.

Er, ABS doesn't turn the brakes off ! That would be silly :) It will modulate the pressure to give the tyre maximum possible traction, whether it's sliding or not - and it does this to all four wheels all at the same time.

See my page

Read the bottom-two documents entitled Automotive ABS Systems and Automotive ESP Systems.

That's exactly it. It knows what *should* be happening (because it can see what the pedals and steering wheel are doing). It knows what *is* happening (because the speed and yaw sensors tell it). It tries to match the two, by applying the brakes as required to individual wheels.

My Pug's got exactly the same Bosch system that Mercedes use. It's very very good. The only time I don't like it, is when I'm on a road with sharp crests - it can sap 10mph off the vehicle speed in a nano-second when you crest a hill, and that's not always in your favour if you're pressing on !

By far it's best aspect, is the total resistance to aquaplaning. If you're legging it down a country lane, and the two passenger-side wheels enter a large puddle/lake, you're normally dragged into the verge (sharply !) and have to steer right (a lot !) to stay on the road. This may or may not result in death. With the ESP, it knows you shouldn't be going left (cos the steering wheel is pointing straight ahead) so it applies the right-hand brakes. Net result is that the water slows the left side of the car, the brakes slow the right, and you continue in a perfectly straight line at a slower speed. It's amazingly good !

Expect that figure to rise to 99%. The only costly bit is the ABS system, and almost every car already has that now.

Yep, that's the case. There's no weight-transfer as such, because it does it's stuff *before* you start crashing.

ABS is required by law now for manufacturers that sell over a certain amount.

The amount mustn't be that great, even MG Rover had to fit ABS as standard

Actually i think its on how many you make, not sell :) TVR don't have to fit it for example, and i'll bet they sold more cars than Rover did this year :D

Aye. They're good pieces of kit.

It'll have a different set up. In the Mercedes, it's most annoying when it kicks in and you've turned it off! :)

Heh. Sometimes it gets scared?

Precisely. At this time it's doing the crossover between being standard and a premium feature. Give it twelve months.

Nah, I still despise them, although the one in the 2.0 Focus seems to work without interrupting all the time.

If you're going fast enough in a Merc it'll keep out of the way. ISTR you have to be doing over 50 before it'll leave you to be an idiot all by yourself.

That and you have to do some fiddling with the button.

"Low volume" folks get an exemption, so people like Morgan and TVR etc. don't have to fit them. I dunno what figures make you "low volume" though.

Is that not the wrong way around ?

It seems a little odd that it will intervene at slow speeds when you don't need it, but leave you to have a crash of biblical proportions at 155mph :)

I suspect that's because of chassis / suspension ability in conjunction with engine output. Most Ford systems seem subtle when they kick in.

Heh. Do you have to double click it or something?