Bio-Ethanol in motor racing

I tried to ask questions about ethanol as a performance fuel, making it and modifying a road based car to run on it. But some un-named person reckoned that no engine tuner would touch it.

In message , Elder writes

SAAB are currently selling 2.0l/180bhp and 2.3l/210bhp cars to run on E85, and were pimping a 9-5 concept car with 310bhp from two litres and a turbo. E85 has a lower calorific value than petrol, but a RON rating of about 110, allowing lots of boost without preignition.

Would that unnamed person be someone on here? They were talking bollocks...

The SCSA V8's are considering running it next year as I say. We use Rousch Racing as an engine builder and I think they might know a little bit about tuning race engines.

Team RAC in the BTCC has already run races on E85.

I know that, You know that, a lot of america knows that (flexfuel cars), but this self proclaimed but un-named "expert" denied it and kept asking me to present reasons why it would be a good thing.

When I did I was just a "google gary" who could "cut and paste" from the internet. When I asked for proof of holes where I had cut chunks out of website he "STFU".

Yup that would be the "expert" and as I pointed out to he, which he ignored by him (it might have been a him, the skirt was a little confusing), indy cars have used it for some time.

Sounds about right. But his silence has shown him to be double stupid: for the 2006 season IRL used a petrol/ethanol mix so if he'd known this he'd no doubt have used it as a comeback. IRL is switching to 100% ethanol for the 2007 season onwards.

Also, Champ Car has used methanol for many years. Different product I know, but a related subject.

The Exploder is designed to run on gasohol, but sadly it's not possible to obtain it easily and legally at petrol stations.

I bought "quite a bit" of legal 95% alcohol in Italy recently, it's much. much cheaper than petrol at 25p/litre. But I suppose n*****ts Brown would want to tax it by adding alcohol duty then fuel duty then VAT which would make it a tad expensive.

I have a vague memory that methanol was also used by McLaren and Ferrari back in the 80s when I was involved in F1 stuff.

In the days of turbos?

The primary reason why no one would ever use high ethanol content fuels for performance applications, has to do with the fact that the characteristics of the said fuels vary with changes in atmospheric conditions.

This doesnt make a tremendous difference to road cars, and spammed up road cars favoured by most on here, but does mean quite a few problems for high output highly tuned engines, that have been properly put together.

k

Shame you dont even appear to be able to spell the name of your engine builder!................are you the team tea-boy I wonder?

k

I wonder if any of you fuckwits have any idea of the cost of specifically blended race fuels?

Thing is the ethanol/petrol blend race fuel is entirely different to the high ethanol fuel thats been available in the US for some while, and is pretty much the same as high ethanol road fuels you can get here.........

k

Ah, and suddenly he posts now that I've given him an 'in'...

Oops, so I made a typo, big deal...

It won't please the people who drive because

- they will pay more for their fuel per liter (speciality fuel, only a few suplliers)

- their specific fuel consumption will go up (35% iirc, so bigger tanks may be required)

- modifications to fuel storage and delivery will be needed

- reprogramming of ECU are obliged

- the ease of getting automotive alcohol is far less than getting normal fuel (so testing is always a pain inthe ass).

- once a container of fuel opens it must be used: it can't be stored as it attracts and bonds with water.

Ethanol and water mix, lessening the energy quantity per unit. It also means that you have to drain the car of its fuel (and discard it) every time the car is stored. Fuel lines and fittings need to be ethanol-resitant, metal fuel lines become prone to rust. Ethanol burns with an almost invisible flame. So once you notice it, most of the time a lot of damage is done.

There are but 2 logical reasons to use alcohol: it produces more power (about

5%) for the same engine-size (even though its energy /l is smaller than regular petrol) However compression must be raised accordingly to exploit the fact that detonation is less likekly to happen. On an alcohol-fueled engine there is no problem to raise compression to 14/1 (starter motor will need to be more torqy). There is a small gain in power.

An ethanol-fire can be put out with water. The rest is pure bollocks.

But hey: the racers will save the earth... yeah sure. Where there was in the

50-60's a racing car named Simplicity, now there are racing series and rules named Stupidity.

Would I be happy to use alcohol? Hell no: it would be a mayor reason to search another race-serie.

Tom De Moor

Sorry Tom, it was meant as a dig at someone on the uk.transport NG...

Come on Ken, I'm waiting for you to google the deliberate error...

Like a V8 turning 10,300 rpm and 650 bhp?

No, McLaren and the BMW turbo boys used fuel based for a large proportion on toluene. Their fuel is often referred to as "rocket fuel". The toluene accounted for high octane numbers so turbo pressure up to +7 bar could be used in qualifying (engine life less than 30 minutes, 1300 HP out of 1.5 l 4 cylinder engine...)

The "orginal" rocket fuel however was a water/ethanol mixture in the first turbo-engined car (a US-car, Oldsmobile?). I have a drawing of that engine somewhere and it has a specific and separate tank for that mixture: the tank was even labelled "rocket fuel".

Tom De Moor