I got an e-mail showing off this guy's Vauxhall
Nice little car. It's humorously compared to the Bugatti Veyron as being "quicker". While the Vauxhall obviously would win in a 1/4 mile drag, how much distance do you think the Veyron would need to pass it assuming both left their foot in it? 1 mile? 2 miles?
I'm not very familiar with European cars, but I like the lines of that old Vauxhall.
Given correct gearing I doubt there would be much in it.
well considering it has over double the power of the veryon gearing dependant i dont think the bugatti would touch it
The Vauxhall using the same gearing it uses at the dragstrip to achieve the claimed times.
Aerodynamics would be a factor at some point
Gearing the same as it uses at the dragstrip.
There'a more to consider than just hp numbers. I think it's a safe assumption that the Vauxhall is an aerodynamic joke compared to the Veyron.
As shown in the video, it runs an 7.8s quarter mile at 187mph. I assume it'll be geared such that it's not far off V_max at the end of the run, but Burgerman is the chap to ask about that. IIRC the Veyron runs about
10.5 @ 140ish mph, so something of a walkover for the vaux..Assuming ideal gearing for highest possible speed and an infinitely long test straight, then noddy aerodynamics calcs suggest that the vaux will be quicker IF its cdA is not more than about 30% greater than that of the veyron, but I'm not sure if that's very likely.
As I said there wouldnt be much in it. But the Vauxhall would be there in half a mile roughly and the veyron? Dunno... Probably 2 miles judging by the Maclaren F1 we were playing with at bruntingthorp.
It was getting 220 through our timing lights after 1.5miles of runway. Interestingly my own new un run in stock 1100 wp suzuki (derestricted) left it for dead coming onto the main runway. From 35mph up to say 140 the bike pulled away so fast the car was a small dot. From then on the bike takes a further mile to hit say 165 due to the bad aerodynamics. At about just past half the runway but the dot gets bigger and bigger! At the timing lights just before the braking boards the car is in front of me by several lengths and triggering the lights at over 220. At this point I was doing maybe 173 to 175 according to the radar so it comes past like you are parked. So the cars acceleration from 120 on is much better than the bike and improves as speed increases. Power to weight is less on the mclaren but its slippery shape makes up for it on a two mile drag. But not by much. On the road with bends, traffic etc it would lose quite easily.
In the same way the veyron would lose on a motorway chase because the top speed is pretty impossible to achieve - no time/space - but the vauxhall can accelerate massively harder. Throw in some corners though and a roads and it would be the veyron...
One of those lovely factlets about the Veyron is that if you start it from stationary and the Mac from 100mph they Bugatti still hits 200 first.
Could you translate this turn of phrase into American?
:-)
Do you mean against that Vauxhall? How do you figure the Vauxhall wins in a highway chase? If I understand correctly, you said your bike got slaughtered in a 1.5 mile dragrace with a top speed pretty close to what the Vauxhall is capable of in dragstrip trim. It would seem the Vauxhall's acceleration advantage is only up to a certain point.
That Veyron wouldn't have to hit anywhere near its top speed to beat that Vauxhall. At 180 the Vauxhall is sucking wind, the Veyron is accelerating hard. While the Vauxhall can go around 190, how long can it maintain it? And how stable is it going to be at that speed compared to the Veyron?
Eh?
I mean the veyron against the V
How do you figure the Vauxhall wins
because of traffic, bends, road works etc. In the real world there isnt many places you could get fast!
If I understand correctly, you said your bike got
Well we dont know. The veyron according to conventional wisdom and an aerodynamics calc wouldnt actually be able to catch the vauxhall anyway...
Err who knows what it can "maintain" - it has the power to go faster than the veyron anyway. Just.
And how stable is it going to be at that speed
Not very. Who said anything about stability?
>
An aerodynamics calc says a car purpose-built to go the better part of
300 mph has an aero *disadvantage* compared to a mass-produced passenger car from the '70's? He's got some mods on the Vaux body, but still.It has the power and gearing to go a 1/4 mi about 2.5 secs faster - on a dragstrip on drag tires - ending up at just about its top speed if it's set up correctly as a drag car.
"What it can maintain" is certainly a crucial issue under the highway race scenario proposed. If you put taller gears in it to theoretically give it more top speed, as well as tires made for maintained speeds near or over 200mph it's going to lose a lot of that short-distance advantage. And pushing that brick any faster would be inviting disaster.
Also, unless we see a verified dyno test of that Vauxhall's engine, we've got only his word for it that it makes 2000hp. People are known to embellish such claims. And where is that engine making its power? Aren't the powerband characteristics of the engine important?
It's pretty obviously implied when talking about a highway race. There's probably as much $$ in just the high-tech suspension and hardware to keep that Veyron stuck to the road as that guy spent total on the Vauxhall dragster.
You say there's not enough distance to get to full speed - if it gets over 220 in 1.5 miles, doesn't seem he needs much distance to go plenty fast. Aren't there straightaways longer than that in Europe? That Vaux normally only needs to maintain that top speed for a couple of seconds before shutting down. A whole different game than going down the highway.
If that Veyron ever gets even with the Vauxhall at speeds like 120,
130, and I don't see any reason why he wouldn't, how do you figure he's not going to leave the Vaux in the dust when he's getting into his powerband and has at least another 120 mph in his back-pocket and isn't in danger of going airborn approaching and beyond 200?With streetable tires, drag-race suspension, laughable aerodynamics, even with taller gears, I just don't see that Vauxhall looking like such a hero in a "highway chase" scenario vs the Veyron.
Btw, how does your bike compare to a Yamaha R1? There's video on YouTube of an R1 getting repeatedly, seriously smoked by a Veyron.
Yeah, but the cdA only needs to be under 30% more than that of the Veyron - it's not easy to get a 30% reduction. According to Gordon Murray in
That 2.7 seconds is a *HUGE* difference. The average acceleration is almost twice as high in the Vaux over the quarter mile. Almost certainly it will be good for over 200mph, because the power will drop off after the peak, and it will definitely get there a hell of a lot sooner and be a hell of a lot further down the road when it does.
As Burgerman says, in a give and take race on the motorway, where speeds probably aren't going to venture above 200mph that much, the vaux is pretty certain to win. If you throw in nasty surfaces, bends or long smooth straights, then it becomes less clear and probably favours the Veyron. Possibly :-)
Of course, but then it does post a 1/4 mile time which roughly corresponds with what you might expect for the claimed power figure. The video showed it to be surprisingly tractable when tootling.
There are plenty of straight sections of that sort of length, but the Vaux gets to 200+mph in less than 0.5 mile, so it will have made rather a significant lead by the time the Veyron matches it's top speed, one would imagine. OK, stuff it, lets do the geek thing properly :) I've done a noddy excel drag-race, using the available data for both cars. Assuming that the Vaux has a max speed of 200mph then we get:
I should point out that this is entirely based on noddy physics and googled data, so should be taken with a pinch or 10 of salt :-D
Heh, our Burgerman was/is the full-fat nutcase type of drag biker - I'm not sure about the specifics, but it was some sort of fast sports bike with a huge turbo and nitrous, getting about 300HP at the wheel, IIRC. Quite a lot quicker than an R1, anyway, I'd imagine.
But the point that keeps getting ignored are the conditions under which it does it. Take away the dragstrip tires and the sticky dragstrip surface and what does it then become? Weren't the Veyron's times on street tires on concrete?
Strictly speculation. We know it's good for I believe they said 183 (186?) was its trap speed. Whether it can go much faster than this is speculation. Not speculation is how much less control he's going to have over it at those speeds.
We KNOW the Veyron is good for 253 mph - there's video of it doing it and STILL incrementally climbing.
Define "a helluva lot". Assuming 1.) they start from a standing start as opposed to "they encounter each other driving down the highway and have a go at it" 2.) he matches his record time he's 2.7 secs ahead at 1/4 mile. Except he's not going to since he's going to be on street tires on a street surface so we can safely hack off what, at least 1.5 secs or so? If he's been allowed to put taller gears in it, all that will do is reduce his 1/4 mile time even further. Under THOSE conditions, how much is he going to be ahead?
Burgerman already related what happened when he had a considerable head start on the Veyron. He got trashed at 1.5 miles even though he was doing close to 180.
And if the Vaux and Veyron were to go at it from a highway speed start, how do you figure the Veyron as the underdog?
Over a couple of miles, why not? Of course, in the case of the Vaux, it's unknown whether it can even do it.
Have you seen that video of the Veyron vs the Audi R8? If the specs I saw are correct, that Audi is a near 190 mph car . They punch it from a highway speed start - with the Audi going first. When the Veyron floors it, it looks like the Audi slammed the brakes on even though he's accelerating, and damn quickly given how fast he's reading off the speed 100 - 110 - 120 about as fast as he can say it. Yet by the time he hits 120 that Veyron is GONE.
At what, 50 mph? Let's see how it holds the road at 170+ over a distance.
On drag tires on a dragstrip. And we don't know it'll do 200 or if the guy will be toying with suicide trying to pilot it down the road near that speed. He normally goes in a straight line and for a few seconds. And from a highway speed start, the entire scenario changes.
Again, which is going to be considerably shortened under street conditions. Now who wins in a "drag race" from say 120 to 200?
Not familiar with this "noddy" I keep seeing pop up. ?? Please translate to American. Also, what about the phrase "not a lot in it" I've seen.
:-)
Don't forget that the Veyron like the M5 is electronically limited to it's top speed, unofficially Bugatti techs say it will do the far side of 270 when de restricted but no one will make a road tyre that's up to it.
This one?
The original question, which I was trying to answer was "While the Vauxhall obviously would win in a 1/4 mile drag, how much distance do you think the Veyron would need to pass it assuming both left their foot in it? 1 mile? 2 miles?", so I simply assumed that this was being run on an arbitrarily long dragstrip. Anything else throws more unknowns into the mix and renders the problem entirely unto the realm of supposition, rather than that of wild extrapolation and randomly chosen googled data.
I'm suspect that an optimised dragster will hit the finish line as it reaches peak power in top gear, however the engine will undoubtedly rev beyond peak_power_rpm, and so the top speed will be higher than the trap speed - in a drag race you are interested in integral(integral(acceleration)) wrt time, i.e. minimising time, rather than hitting V_max. I don't think that it is unreasonable speculation to assume that it can run higher speed than the trap speed.
As to stability and control, I'm sure the veyron would be vastly better, as you say. If I had to pick one to throw down a real road, it'd be the Veyron, for certain.
Yup, true.
Lots and lots and lots. I did pretty graphs and everything :-)
I have no idea, but quite a bit. Even limited to 1.5G acceleration, as it would be on sticky road tyres, the vaux is going to accelerate much more quickly than the Veyron, because it has about 4 times the power:weight ratio. By the time the aerodynamics start to play a part, the Veyron is not accelerating VERY quickly, and will be a reasonable distance behind, so it will take him a while to catch up. I can't be any more specific without some hard data..
I think that was against a McLaren F1, but yes, the more aerodynamic vehicle eventually overtook the less aerodynamic one. I think 'trashed' is a slightly emotive word in the context - at 1.25 miles the McLaren would have been 'trashed' by the bike?
The BMW M5 can hit 200mph with 500Hp, so lets be conservative and say that the vaux needs 700Hp to do the same. From aero calcs, the Veyron needs about 490Hp. The acceleration is given by (engine power-drag power)/mass, so at 200Mph the vaux has an excess of 1500Hp to accelerate its ~1000kg, whereas the Veyron has ~500Hp to accelerate its 1700kg - at
200mph the vaux will accelerate 3 times as quickly as the Veyron!I haven't seen it, but the Audi R8 has 420Hp and weighs 1600kg - the Veyron should be vastly quicker, especially at high speed.
The vaux, by a country mile.
Yo, listen up y'all. Noddy was this dude who rocked about in some, like, totally blinged-out, clockwork wheels down in Toyland.
*ahem* sorry, sorry. 'Noddy' was a series of books for children, written by Enid Blyton, and is used to mean 'simple' or in my case 'wildly inaccurate by dint of unjustified supposition'."very close" or "the two things are very similar"
Hmmm. On the top-gear vid, it was climbing very slowly to the 407km/h mark - it looked more like it was asymtoting to it's V-max than hitting a limiter. It certainly didn't look like it would ever get near 270.
Traffic
Noddy = err... I guess you have to be English for this one. A bit the same as saying something is 'Mickey Mouse'.
'Not a lot in it' = just as it sounds, not much difference.
A brick can go 500 miles per hour if you push it hard.
No drag car or bike goes through the lights at top speed. Some may run out of gearing depending on setup but we dont know that do we. And in any case a gearing change to go to its top possible speed on the power available is a simple diff change.
It would lose some acc only in the first few yards where grip is the big issue off the line in low gear. But not a lot.
No. And the weight of the car and the quarter mile time as well as the top speed over the quarter says hes about right with his claims.
A soggy brick does not need to be unstable as such, and in some ways its easier to make a brick more aerodynamically stable than something slippery.
No the vauxhall is still acc like a bastard at its quarter mile finish line... It has neve reached its top speed. But it would do so MUCH faster than the veyron.
Pretty easily! The vauxhall is accelerating harder than the veyron at ALL speeds. If the top theoretical speeds were the same (and they calculate out that the veyron is slower) then the one with bags of drag and bags of power will ALWAYS accelerate harder at any speed. Simple physics. The Vauxhall has a much superior power to weight ratio.
Maybe you dont. Physics on the otherhand tends to disagree.
About the same. I was talking about the Mclaren. And at lower speeds the bike leaves it.
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