Induction kit sound question

Nope, probably works as designed, it is an induction kit, not a megaphone. K&N are a responsible international company, and may actually spend some time making minimal performance increases with some, but again minimal noise increase.

And pigs may fly...

In news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com, Jonathan Walsmley decided to enlighten our sheltered souls with a rant as follows

Surely quiet is good?

I'd love to know exactly what the appeal is of an induction system that makes more noise than anything else, on a 105 bhp road car.

I fully appreciate the snort of a pair of DCOE Webers on a BDA, or the intake symphony that was the old Demon Tweeks sponsored Ferrari 308, or the fantastic snarly growl of Tony Ponds Computervision MG 6R4, but hearing gutless little Saxos and Corsas with HUGE air filters at full throttle on a Saturday night is surely only for sheer entertainment value. Some of these things are turning up with carbon fibre airboxes ffs.

They're not fast, they don't sound good, and at anything over 1/4 throttle they scream at the police "PULL ME!!!!!"

Get a recording of a F1 car and put that on your car stereo.

induction kits do sound nice, I'm not a fan of saxo's but corsa gsi imho with induction and stainless make a luvverly sound...

Distance between inlet valves and air filter. Diameter and length of manifold ports.

Also having a wide overlap cam lets loads of combustion gases belch up the wrong way (TOWARDS) the air filter .... that also makes for good noise. And having a bonnet as thick as tin foil also helps!!! I hope you have a nice cool air supply feeding the 57i, otherwise you'll be going slower!!!

but hearing

Yes, quite funny to hear them taking 5 seconds to go from 1000rpm>7000rpm just in FIRST gear. Then another 12 from 3000rpm>7000rpm in second gear.

What about:

1000rpm-7000rpm in 3 seconds (28mph) 1st then 3000rpm-7000rpm in 4 seconds (57mph) 2nd then 3500rpm-7000rpm in another 5 seconds (80mph) 3rd then 3500rpm-7000rpm in another 7 seconds (100mph) 4th (0-100mph in 19 seconds).

Sort of sounds like a 50cc moped being crashed through its gears ... bwaa bwaaaaa bwaaaaaaa bwaaaaaaaa bwaaaaaaaaaaaa

These Escorts only have 100bhp don't they? (anyone feel free to kick in here) Maybe 108 or summet? Even so, i very much doubt they get to 60 in around 8 seconds....

Ok just checked, 103 or 112bhp, with a 0-60 time of 9.8 or 10 seconds :)

In news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com, Jonathan Walsmley decided to enlighten our sheltered souls with a rant as follows

Ain't quick either though , is it?

are you sure it's not a giggle, and not a scream?

Right, ok, lets be serious and sensible for a moment.

*engages serious and sensible mode*

K&N 57i kits *DO NOT* release any more power. They suck in *HOT* air (and no, the shiny silver hoover tube they supply with it isn't good enough to supply cold air).

The 16v Escorts actually had the original airbox and induction system acoustically tuned to produce the most power with the least unsatisfactory noise possible. This cost Ford probably hundreds of thousands of pounds to develop.

As someone who's been to K&N's research and development facility in Warrington on countless occasions (my best mate used to work there when I were a kid), I can reliably inform you that K&N didn't spend anywhere near the same amount of time and effort designing the 57i for the Escort. IIRC it's interchangeable with other makes, never mind other models. If you want more performance, but a K&N filter element in the standard airbox, if you want noise and no go, stick with the 57i

No problem.

Thats just over 8 isn't it.

Oh bugger, and he isn't even getting the noise from a 57i

Fuck it, why split hairs? It's not a quick car by any manner of means.

Everyone's definition of "fast" is different - I'm sure the OP's definition will change when he's driven a fast car ;-)

The original air filter is not very good thats why I replaced it with the 57i. The car is 115 bhp & can assure u its runs in just over 8 seconds. Parkers has it at 9.2 but u can get better than that.

125mph is fast enough for me at the moment thankyou very much! Give me a few years no claims and things will be very different I can assure u. My uncles hobby is tinkering about with Jap imported supercars so the last laugh will b mine lol. I like my escort and at insurance group 10 its a good comprimise to start with. If its known that the K&N doesnt increase but in fact reduces performance then why does it sell so well!? Is there any tips you can give me to help with the cold air flow? It seems like it may be worth putting my original filter back on as my fuel consumption hasnt improved either!

Thanks for your posts I aint rantin just want to know a little more thats all. Come round to think about it I should have just called me unc :)

In news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com, Jonathan Walsmley decided to enlighten our sheltered souls with a rant as follows

That's actually quicker than the 150 bhp Mk5 RS2000! Surprising.

aye, 125 mph is a decent rate of knots, enough to be going on with.

Indeed, group 10 is reasonable. Especially if its quicker than the Gp16 RS..

Right, cold air is denser, warm air is thinner. Cold air + fuel makes big huge bang. Warm air and the bang ain't as big. Bigger the bang, more power you're gonna get.

To make a 57i kit work, you have to make sure that it's only being fed cold air. As I said earlier, the bit of shiny silver hoover tube pointing at it won't make the blindest bit of difference. There's still hot underbonnet air coming at it from the other 350 degrees. So, to make it actually improve performance, you need to -ta daaaaaaaa -

/ Panel it in /. i.e make an *airbox* for it that means the 57i is in the middle of an enclosure thats only being fed cold air. Bit similar to the one Ford fit when the car is new.

Which will remove most of the growly noise you fitted it for. But it *will* give you slightly more power if done right.

The reason they sell well is because of magazines like M*x P***r and R**s telling you that a 57i is the first step to instant power. It isn't. It just

*sounds* like it is, and because it sounds like it is, boy racers drive like they've all of a sudden got an extra 50 bhp, hence the resulting drop in fuel economy.

You probably think I'm taking the piss with my derogatory remarks, I'm not, I've been there and done every silly "power improving" mod probably known to man. From 3.0 Capri carbs on 1.6 Cortinas to 530 bhp Sapphire Cosworths..

Oh, one thing a 57i IS good for is when you have no factory airbox to use, like when you drop a 2.0 16v in a Nova. They're useful then.

anyway, gotta go, I've just set fire to the brakes on the XJ-S.

its not.

In news:T37Zb.3066$ snipped-for-privacy@news-text.cableinet.net, Theo decided to enlighten our sheltered souls with a rant as follows

No? Oh dear. All the figures I ever saw for a Mk5 RS2000 said 131 mph, 0-60

8.5 seconds. Never seen a single road test for the Mk5 RS that said it was any quicker than 8.4 to 60. I know they're slower 0-60 than the Mk2 RS2000 and that's 8.3 to 60. I actually proved it by racing my own Mk5 RS2000 (J381 XHK) against the Mk2 RS2000 I had at the time (KHD114W), both totally standard, both had done around 60000 miles, and the Mk2 was quicker up to about 75 mph.

Or are you saying it's not surprising?

Personally I think there's f*ck all chance of a near standard 1.8 16v Escort getting near an RS2000.

Sorry no, the stock mk6 or 7 1.8 115bhp is all out at 123mph and thats in

4th, not 5th. 0-60 in 9.8 or so depending on creature comforts. The previous 130 mk5 tops out at about 130mph. Blame your very over optimistic speedo....

Sounds like you have a leak somewhere...

Right. Throw away your silver convoluted tube and go pick the factory airbox back out of the bin. Seriously the best way for proper *cold* air with these is either a cone filter 57i kit or a K&N replacement element in the stock airbox. With the former cut out the mounting hole so the MAF flange will pass into the airbox with the filter inside. With the latter get some smooth bore silicone hose between throttle and MAF as the rubber bellows one hurts airflow.

Most importantly- with both options- pop along to Mr Ford dealer or scrapy and pick yourself up another airbox duct (the bit the screws to the rad grille), take a tank cutter to the bottom of the airbox and install the 2nd duct and screw other end to the rad grille along side the original.

Mount the whole lot up firmly- especially the MAF and vibration will eventually break the sensing wire and put the lin on the air box. Job done. Fraid you'll get less noise, but thats the proper way to set it up for power.

Further to that, on the plastic manifold engines- i.e. the black top- a 52mm throttle body is the next item to more power, then a unichip properly mapped live and you'll be at 135bhp. Add another 5 with a decent exhaust manifold and cat back system.

Actually it having said all that, it would be cheaper and easier to swap the motor for a 2 litre with 130bhp right out of the box.

Tim..

What people are saying is about right, to add my two pence.

Once upon a time, engines were inefficiently built because fuel was cheap and power could be had by bolting in a larger engine for those as wanted to pay more.

With an engine like this, the cheap cast iron manifolds and heavy, lengthy intake ducting with fat air filter element limited power but since the tuning and exhaust were limited anyway there was little or no point in changing just a few things.

But, if you had a competition car, you wanted to get the maximum power from the engine and if you had gone to the trouble of a long duration cam, fancy sports exhaust, exhaust and inlet manifolds and so forth, it would be a shame to leave the old intake where it was and get hardly any extra power. No, you would put in some sort of high airflow intake and filter system to release the power you spent all that money on. And so, you would as likely as not fit a K&N or one of the other filters, probably a conical one straight onto the back of the SU carb intake so there was no question of excessive limits on airflow.

As a result, any tuned car would have to use a K&N (or equivalent) and this would come to be part of the description when boasting about your power or explaining how it was done.

A modern engine isn't the same thing at all. There is some mileage in realising that the intake tracts are still restricting the breathing to some extent, so as to quieten down the engine (for the bulk of the punters buying them), but there is also a way to design the intake, mainly through the length of the inlet downpipe (the long pipes across the top of the head are usually there to make the path longer, to fit the required design.)

The way you find they do it, is to introduce just the right amount of air turbulence and swirl inside the inlet / valve / cylinder so that the full charge of fuel and air mixes well and refreshes right into the corners of the cylinder space so that when the engine fires, maximum energy is released for you to use by driving the wheels, and less is wasted so that the fuel economy doesn't suffer either. Pretty much everyone does this these days because they all compete on power, performance and mpg, so there's no excuse for not bothering to get all you can from a given engine capacity.

In this case, it's difficult to see why you might expect to gain power. It's reasonably obvious that Honda or Fiat or Saab have heard of K&N and know exactly how that works, so why wouldn't they fit their own versions (benefiting from specific benchmarking and testing for that engine) from day one, if it was going to make a desirable difference?

But what you can do, is change the dynamics and maybe this will suit you better than the car was by design. Removing all the intake ducting will certainly make the induction noise louder, which may suit some people better than others. As has been mentioned, you end up with the question of air temperature, although it's not *quite* as bad as has been suggested because the inlet will heat it up a bit by friction on the way to the filter / intake and all that hot air under the bonnet will heat up the inlet tracts too, so it's not necessarily going to matter hugely. The improved airflow will provide the option for more power, probably at the cost of torque, so the car will need to be revved more to get the power, and won't pull away going up hills nearly so well.

Experimenting with these things is not a bad idea, theory is all very well but measurements are convincing. And if you only wanted noise, the K&N has probably maximised that already, taking it off altogether is the next step, if that's making a big difference then some sort of even thinner conical might be the next thing to try, but don't leave it unfiltered or it'll get damaged quite rapidly.

Hope this helps.

I've got a k and n kit (plus 8 percent bigger primary and secondary jets) on my citroen axgt. I also have four X 50mm cold air feeds around it. Two from under the bumper (i've removed the blanking plate in front of the tow eye, attached them either side of the towing point) the other two go through the front panel, just behind the grill. Also, i have two bonnet grills from a metro, bolted through my bonnet .... not pretty ... functional.

They are there to aid airflow through the front and out the top.

Next, i have a cheapo digital thermometor on the dash, with the sensor stuck on the side of the solex car, so i can see exactly what temperature its running at.

With all this kit, the carb still warms up to 70 centigrade in slow moving traffic. But, out on the road, above 20mph, the carb temperature drops to around 3-4 degrees above outside temperature, which i consider quite good bearing in mind the potential heat volume rising from the engine.

The carb body temperature obviously lags behind the temperature of the air going in, so the alloy could still be showing 40 degrees whilst air at 15 is running through.

How many litres of air a minute does a 1.4 litre engine @ 3500rpm consume? My estimate is 2450 litres per minute (at full throttle).

2450 / 60 seconds = 40 litres a second. 4 hoses, 10 litres each a second, at 70mph = possible if they point forward!!

Partial throttle openings is different.