if you get a FWD car sideways your pushing it to much! LOL i got a few looks when i started to fishtail the MR2 down the road then went and swung wide one way and as i tried to correct snapped and went right round 180 the other hehe. had some local chav's nearby being basildon and they stopped and shouted as i got out 'shit dude you ok!?' i gave the thumbs up and they buggered off hehe. after that a wall of traffic had left the lights down the road and were passing all gawping at my MK1 on the grass :)
i'm looking at maybe a drift day for my MKII to feel the limits hehe!
I drive a 286bhp BMW 740 without traction control and it is as safe as houses. The fact that it has 50/50 weight distribution is probably more significant than the driven end in most circumstances although the rear drive probably makes cornering more adjustable.
RWD does add several "loud" things to the car's repertoire but they all require very deliberate invocation :)
Ummmm, that's the wrong thing to do in many FWD cars too. Lift-off oversteer is not only for 911s. Your "understanding" of ABS and steering seems little flawed too...
in news:41f10df2$0$15456$ snipped-for-privacy@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net, Alistair J Murray slurred :
In the vast majority of FWD cars with supposedly significant lift-off oversteer, it is only a factor in low gears where the engine braking can affect the suspension loading - it typically occurs on roundabouts, rather than in normal driving.
I drive a turbo-diesel 205, which has the most lift-off oversteer of any model in the 205 range - the range probably best known for FWD lift off oversteer. The only occasions I have had any were when I was deliberately provoking it in wet or icy conditions.
In any other conditions, lifting off the accelerator when things get loose is exactly the right thing to do!
Why? In the situation nom describes, the problem is that he has run out of front-end grip. If it's due to acceleration, then easing off the accelerator increases the amount of grip available for steering.
If he's braking then it's 'cos he's going too fast, so he needs to keep doing it until he isn't, but in the mean time he needs to steer, so using the ABS makes perfect sense - you get the maximum braking that your chosen steering attitude allows.
Probably less of an issue nowadays, certainly needed watching for in the '70s and '80s - easy to get the tail out on a Saab 99 or 900, easy to get it back too tho'...
Skinny tall tyres were much more forgiving.
No problems shutting down in fast sweepers?
Mostly, but it certainly isn't a dependable cure all.
My reading was that having run out of grip he would brake hard enough to make the ABS pulse, thinking to somehow get more grip.
Losing speed is going to help, but there is still only as much grip as there is however it's shared between steering and braking.
The idea that activating ABS is going to give you steering that you didn't have with otherwise unlocked wheels.
Definately not. I've had a Focus Zetec utterly sideways at 90+ mph. I probably couldn't repeat it, and wouldn't particularly want to, but it is possible. Mondeos will go sideways at 80ish is provoked in the right way. Good fun it is too.
Makes no sense to me either. ABS and TC are handy for keeping the driver out of trouble, but if you're going fast enough, no TC / ABS / ESP system will save you if you don't know how to handle a car.
ABS will give you a small amount of extra steering, but it will also
*increase* your braking distance in a situation of that severity. So it's not /that/ much help in a crossed up situation. Hence most race and rally cars not using ABS.
No amount of electrickery can give you grip that isn't there even if you do know how to handle the car. You're going to get a better result if you co-ordinate the modulation of steering and power/brakes which is beyond most if not all TC systems.
in news:41f13aa2$0$45443$ snipped-for-privacy@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net, Alistair J Murray slurred :
No. I don't drive _right_ on the limit of grip at high speeds, and at
80% the engine braking in 4th/5th isn't enough to upset the balance - you need to be in 2nd to do that.
Nom understands how the ABS system works (we've had similar discussions before... :), and knows that it simply shares the available grip between steering and braking.
Yup, exactly.
But he didn't say anything about that. It will stop you sliding when you brake that bit too hard and exceed the available grip.
With a good ABS system you can have more grip, simply because it distributes braking to each wheel according to it's grip level - something that no conventional braking system can do.
in news: snipped-for-privacy@individual.net, "Pete M" slurred :
I thought rally cars don't use ABS 'cos :
1) on loose surfaces you get better grip by piling up gravel/snow/etc in front of a locked wheel than you do from an ideally-braked unlocked wheel
2) They want to be able to adjust the brake balance and lock the rear wheel independently of the fronts.
ABS allows you to *steer*. It doesn't magically increase your grip, nor does it magically decrease your stopping distance. It quite simply allows you full steering control, whilst still applying maximum possible braking force.
If things go wrong whilst slowing, you can activate the ABS, and then steer where you need to go. As long as you aren't trying to break the laws of physics, ABS can and does bail you out of all sorts of scrapes :)
Ah, that's where you're wrong. ABS grants the highest prioroity to the steering. It will only use whatever grip is left, for braking. It will quite happily allow you to steer at the expense of being able to stop !
That's exactly what it does - because it shares the braking force *between* the wheels.
Without ABS, you can only brake as hard as the wheel with the LEAST grip. If you brake any harder, then that wheel will lock, and you're screwed.
With ABS, each individual wheel has it's own seperate braking force. If two wheels have lots more grip than the other two, the ABS will happily let them brake a lot harder - you couldn't have got that extra braking force without ABS, because the other two wheels would have locked.
Yep. But seeing as you can now steer round the obstacle in question, then that's fine.
Also bear in mind that ABS is optional - you can deactivate it at any time, by simply lifing off the pedal ! If you don't want to use the ABS, then don't ever exceed the maximum possible braking grip of any of your four tyres.
Any help is better than none !
Except that WRC cars *do* use ABS, and it was banned in Formula 1, for giving too much advantage.
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