Re: not a bad bunch of turbo motors

I admit it, I can't afford a modern car.

But I don't care either, because short of exotic machinery, there's no new car I'd want. Whereas there's an ever growing list of older cars I'd gladly have, most of them mundane underpowered little saloons. They have more character, are easier to work on and modify, cheaper to insure, sometimes tax exempt, usually no more thirsty than a modern day equivalent (due to weighing half as much, and not having a moggy up the tail pipe), more fun to drive, more responsive, and more likely to go up in value than halve every

12 months.

If I could afford a brand new Focus, I'd have a 64 Mini Cooper S and something bigger (maybe a Triumph 2000 estate) for when I needed it. Or maybe a nice P5b and a Spridget. Or any other single car or combination of cars where I can take a spanner to them and know WTF I'm doing, and do it for the sheer hell of it.

So for some people, having a tin box that looks like a more expensive tin box than next doors, has a sprinkling of cup holders, and a nice set of black boxes and dealer paperwork that says everything will work at least until the owner wants to replace it with a newer flasher looking tin box, is fine. For others, buying a 200 quid motor every year and driving it into the ground because they have more sense than money is fine. There's even some of us loonies who prefer to run something that's gone past bangernomics into the strange realms of shit cheap to buy, bank account emptying to maintain.

Well If your talking bread&butter cars like Ford, Vauxhall etc, yes, the modern version is superior in every way to the 80's car.

But I tend to buy older luxury barges from the 80' early 90's and you get all the safety, comfort, spec and performance of a modern car for peanuts, and most will give many more years of reliable service...

Infact the interior materials on many new cars I find poor, because they're designed to be recycled, like the rest of the car....after about 10years...

i thought they were FWD

Oh dear...

As you say in your post, the only thing that (very few) old cars are better at, is being "driver's cars". This is a complete non-issue to 99.9% of the population, and is merely one out of 6,000 factors that determine a car's goodness.

VFM doesn't come into it. A 205 GTi cost a similar percentage of income back in the late 80s, as a modern-day hot-hatch.

I disagree.

We're talking modern day motors here - chatty old Escorts hardly compare to a Focus :)

But they're better in ALL areas apart from the "driver's car" issue. We're talking about road cars here, not competition, so it's not really relevent. And anyhow, even if a Civic Type-R isn't quite as involving as a 205 GTi, it's still PLENTY involving enough.

Hardly an issue for a road car, and for 99.9% of the population. If you're exploring limits on public roads, then you'll get locked up :)

I suspect the number of people who buy cars based purely on their "driving ability" (because that's the ONLY thing older cars are better at), irrelevent of all other factors, is approaching zero. To put it another way : If you gave a keen driver, a "reasonable" budget - enough to go and buy a new or nearly-new car - you can better your bottom dollar he wouldn't get a chatty old 80s car :)

When it comes to driving, road holding and track tests Top Gear got a bunch of old late 80's early 90's models and new replacements. Ran them though the same tests on the same track. The old ones pissed on the new overweight junk.

Iv'e noticed a lot more tyre marks running off the road and holes turning up in hedges these last 5 or so years than I saw in the previous 20 years. One road I have used once a month for the last 20 years used to be a NSL 60 limit. I used to drive my '84 Celica at

60mph for the whole length of it, easy, didn't even get close to getting out of shape or cutting white lines. They cut it to a 40mph limit about 5 years ago, since then there have been 2 single car accidents with 2 deaths, both with near new cars, one hit a tree the other got a telegraph pole. Police reported that neither speed, nor drink was the cause. There is clearly something wrong with modern cars when sober people can't keep them on the road at 2/3rds the speed of old ones.

As of last week there are 3 marker posts down, tyre marks on the verge and a hole has appeared in the hedge on a road I use every day. Yet again in a 40mph limit on a road that used to be NSL and you know who could and did drive it at that speed. It's on the outside of a wide easy 60mph bend. They are making the cars better at surviving crashes but it seems they are prone to exit road left when there is no exit. Perhaps there is some un-programmed for road condition or driving tactic that triggers the TC or DSP or ESP or whatever shit into heavy one side braking and the car slews instantly into the hedge, tree, telegraph pole etc.

-- Peter Hill Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header Can of worms - what every fisherman wants. Can of worms - what every PC owner gets!

When you have lived to see flares, sail sized bags, pvc macs and god help us (fake) fur trimmed hooded parka's come round for the second time. When they start selling the reject jeans with twisted seams from the warehouse stockpile using a car your dad had new 35 years ago in the ads. You learn that there is good taste and bad taste and fashion is for those with bad taste. Nothing dates a car (or anything else) more than having been the height of fashion.

What lightweight medium 3 door 2+2 sports coupe will you replace it with? What will you trade up to? The breed is almost dead, the

1989-1998 RS13/RPS13 Nissan 200SX/180SX was the pinnacle of this type of car's development. Even the current 2.7 V6 Hyundai coupe or Celica T sport can't hold a candle to it. I discount the MKIII Supra as it is over 300Kgs heavier and no lightweight - like having a 200SX fully laden all the time.

Discontinued and never to return? Only got weight under 1500Kg by cutting the 2+2 to 2 + 2 1/2's with no legs like so many other so called 2+2's, lots less load space so you wind up renting or running a second car to live your life. The MKIII had enough room to sit a big bloke eating his chips behind Jason Plato while doing donuts, he wasn't well. 2+2 Z's are no more, the new 350Z is a pure 2 seater, the GT-R if it ever turns up will not have decent rear seats. Next door neighbour has a XK8, the back seats are a joke, him and the wife went to his grandsons christening in the car, his daughter (auntie) had to go by train! Next door neighbour to him has a MX5 and a VW camper. (That XK8 is huge when you see it parked between a MX5 and

200SX) Up the road there is a TVR 350 sat in a garage 350 days a year. The Dutton I know don't get out much either.

Moving on from a 3 door fastback Celica, Hyundai, want more of the same? 200SX is about the only option, although the switch from FWD to RWD may be a bit exciting. From there if you want more performance and road holding with style, the only option is a 2 seater, you lose load and passenger carrying options. If you want more utility then it's a 5 door hatch or an estate, you lose sleek sports styling and gain performance sapping weight. The 3 door hot hatches, lose sleek sports styling + the trade boot space for rear seats and the load space winds up at least a foot too short, say hello cycle rack or get the spanners and front wheel out, only way to get a shower door home from B&Q is with a saw and glass cutter. 2 or 4 doors with a boot? Going to wind up with trailers or roof racks and cycle racks. Or take a day off work and wait for the shower door to be delivered?

Everything else is in someway less, I don't want to lose anything, I just want a bit more of everything I've got now. And I'm totally pissed that no car maker can satisfy my demands. The 200SX can hardly be the best car in the world but in terms of doing what I want a car to do it seems that it is. My only current options are make my own or add more performance on what I've got. Luckily that's easy and what's more cheap at £15/bhp for the first extra 100bhp. And about the same again on big brakes, bigger wheels to fit over the bigger brakes and adjustable shocks. But then I'd lose my licence.

-- Peter Hill Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header Can of worms - what every fisherman wants. Can of worms - what every PC owner gets!

LOL :)

So ? People use their cars to get places - not to make quick times on a track ! See my other reply - the number of people who buys cars based SOLELY on their "driving ability", is approximately zero. You're talking about a TINY minority of drivers - for everyone else, newer cars ARE better :)

Clearly that statement is loonacy.

Poppycock. Average modern car - let's say a Focus, or a new Astra, has MASSIVELY better road-holding and grip-levels, than the early 90s Escorts and Astras that they replaced !

This is partly true.

They wouldn't sell, if they weren't. At the very least, people think they are better.

I would think these crashes came about due to the driver, rather than the car, but there does seem to be a rise in accidents, depending on how you measure it. This has a lot to do with people driving badly, I think some of it is because they have been persuaded that all accidents are caused by drinking and driving, therefore they are immune if they are sober. Also, they rely on the car rather than themselves, so when the car is put into a position it can't deal with, they can't deal with it either.

That's true, and the engines are more powerful and economical. But modern cars have soft suspension and low aerodynamic drag to maximise top speed and fuel economy and make them ideal for motorway cruising.

Decent older cars still aimed at performance and handling on roads where that made a difference, e.g. hard suspension and dynamic grip from downforce, at the expense of more sensation of speed on motorways. Fact is, you don't need grip or handling on the motorway unless things have gang badly afglay. What you need is ABS and lots of front and rear impact absorbing protection, with airbags. beyond that it may as well be a beautifully decorated box.

Not saying this is universally applicable, e.g. I bet Ferrari have decent handling compared with a Ka. However, I would suspect a modern Ferrari is faster and more comfortable on the Autostrada, but would be left behind a

1960's Ferrari on a trip through the Alps. Still, why would you not optimise a car for the sort of roads you expect the punters to use it on?