Are enviro-nuts EVER satisfied??

: > : >Until recently he's been relatively harmless, but here lately it's as if : > : >someone gave him too high a jolt of electricity at the funny farm or like : > : >Spike said cheap drugs. : > : >

: > : >KJK : > : >

: > : Or, while out picking through the dump recently, he came across a : > : stack of old Greenpeace magazines.... : >

: >

: > Well, for some, bad attention is better than no attention at all. : >

: > KJK : >

: >

: : If you ever wondered, do a Google-groups search for free speech : store and/or sift through news.admin.net-abuse.email and look at the : multiple posts under multiple names about the SPEWS list. One k00k, a : million OT messages and the wrong meds. Mix in a whole lotta time and : you have hurc ast to a 5th power.

Can I just take your word for it? The k00ks are bad enough when they come out on their own, you want me to go looking for them?

*grin*

I'm fairly certain that I can find something much more pleasant to do with my time. Sounds like it would be enlightening in an off world sort of way.

: -- : : Oh, you are out of your rabbid assed mind.- KJK :

Reply to
KJ.Kate
Loading thread data ...

"Spike" wrote : >True but it would be a relatively infrequent event and comparing the : >volume of fluids over a 300,000 mile life of a car disposing of a set of : >batteries would be minor. Also just think of all the manufacturing of : >metal that would be unnecessary like engine blocks, heads, gears, : >transmissions, etc. : And all those unemployed auto workers.... but is that something not : entered into the equation... by the time such an auto is produced, : what would the world population be, how many would have such vehicles, : and thus how many more discarded batteries and fluids would there be?

But but but.... WE can just pile them up! Dump them anywhere, who cares! The future generations will figure out a way to get rid of the toxins. THEY will clean it up! Have you not been reading these posts? Have you not learned anything here?? Sheesh.

KJK

Reply to
KJ.Kate

AAAAAAKKKKK!!!!!!! He uttered the ......

"Beetlejuice - beetlejuice - beetlejuice....".

Fie on you, WF, and a pox on your existance for uttering the hu.....hu.....hu... him word.....

Reply to
Jim Warman

JIM! DON'T SAY IT!!!!!!!!!!

Reply to
Spike

It had the same effect on me Jim... I was hoping that if I ingored it, it would stay away.

ptooie ptooie ptooie

KJK

: :

Reply to
KJ.Kate

Deal with some of the people I see daily and you'll beg to have beetle juice back....

Reply to
WindsorFox

"WindsorFox" wrote : Deal with some of the people I see daily and you'll beg to have : beetle juice back.... :

Umm... like who? Here in my little corner of the world, the only people that can bother me are the ones that are in town and I have to drive 15 miles to let them annoy me.

KJK

Reply to
KJ.Kate

Told you, GOogle Free speech store, freespeechstore and richard scoville. Parouse what comes up. Look in the news group I mentioned.

Reply to
WindsorFox

The militant environmentalists are simply using environmentalism as a vehicle (no pun intended) for their anti-capitalist beliefs.

A large number of the most active enviro nut groups are fronts for communist/socialist organizations. The plight of the environment is really secondary to their desire to move towards a cradle to grave entitlement society. In their minds everyone should be equal...equally miserable.

Now to pull this closer to being on-topic:

My Mustang has been tucked away in the garage for almost 2 months...god how I wish I could roll her out and generate some healthy clouds of pollution. :P

(*>

Reply to
Hawk

I knew the ACLU were a bunch of Commie sympathizers, but had not realized they were enviro nuts, too. Dang. They'll be after my car next as soon as they get done destroying religion and Christmas, and the rest of the American way of life... I wonder if they'll throw their support behind some minority automaker, and fight to close down the majority ones....

Reply to
Spike

I hate to think what it costs to get a set of batteries replaced in a hybrid. The "recycling" fee itself must be pretty hefty.

Pure electric cars at this point are a complete pipe dream. Not only do you have the battery disposal problem, but consider the following...

If everyone converted to electric cars, where would all of the required electrical power come from to charge all of those batteries? Are we going to increase the amount of coal we burn by several orders of magnitude? The enviro nuts will never allow more nuke power plants to be built either...so whats the alternative?

The U.S power grid is near the breaking point now. There have not been any major improvements or additions to existing electrical infrastructure for decades.

Remember the rolling blackouts in California? How on earth are they going to be able to provide enough power for everyones electric cars when they can hardly keep up with electrical demand now.

(*>

Reply to
Hawk

Probably not much more than an engine rebuild.

Pure electrical cars are far from a pipe dream. They are possible right now. The only thing keeping them from replacing petrol driven cars is having batteries that give an equivalent driving range (i.e. 300+ miles on a charge) and a quick recharge time of, say, less than 5 minutes. We have the technology (sans the batteries) in computers, electric motors, build materials etc. to make one hell of an electric vehicle, IMO, and to make it quite affordable.

Making electrical power can be done in a variety of ways. The good thing is that nearly all power plants have emissions controls and by centralizing the burning of the fuel (i.e. coal, oil etc.) it is easier to do it in an efficient, clean manor. It is an economy of scale thing. Once the electricity is generated the end user generates zero emissions. Just think of all the waste that is avoided by an electric car with a set of 1,000 recharge cycle batteries verses a typical car of today. Plus a combustion engine is notoriously inefficient for converting the energy of petroleum to mechanical energy to drive a car. Way less efficient than an electric car. Also, having the electric grid and vehicles in place makes shifting to newer, more efficient technologies for generating electricity seamless and painless.

The money saved from not having to manufacture, transport, store and distribute liquid fuel could more than cover the costs of improving the power grid. The fact is there isn't a more efficient way to distribute power to the masses than the electrical grid. Plus a person could slow charge their vehicle overnight in their home and reduce the peak demands on the grid since the electrical load is low when people are sleeping.

The way they always do, improve the capacity of the system. It isn't that difficult and really not that expensive. The money saved from the reduction in manufacturing, storing, transporting and distributing petroleum for use in current vehicles would more than pay for it. Heck, in California just the money saved from the elimination of their Nazi smog inspection process would pay for it. ;)

Reply to
Michael Johnson, PE

A standard gasoline engine is going to outlast a set of batteries 5 times over minimum. In extreme climates the difference will become even more apparent. Batteries are like people...they don't tend to hold up well in extreme cold or heat, they do best at median temps.

We are not talking about the need for one or two new powerplants...you'd need dozens. Who's gonna pay to build them? Who is going to allow them in their back yards? etc. etc.

Even though fuel prices are high, the refining industry is one of the most well tuned industries on earth. The cost of manufacture and transport is a tiny fraction of the cost of a gallon of gas as it's done on such a massive scale and the processes involved have been perfected over decades.

I only have two questions...who's going to pay for the upgrades, and who is going to be able to get it rammed through the political process and make it possible (even if someone will cough up the cash to do it)?

I think I have a better chance of winning the lottery than seeing an major increase in the capacity of the electrical grid in the next 20 years.

(*>

Reply to
Hawk

My father, who has been working with electrical and electronic systems since the early days of radar during WW2, and headed a division of a major corporation's government projects division when 5 of his bosses got the axe, was over and we were discussing such issues. When he began quoting equations, and explaining their impact regarding what it takes in juice to power a 1 horse motor, and how long it would take to charge up a system with a 1 horse motor at each wheel, I was amazed. It's going to take a heck of a lot more than added power plants to go to a so called non emission electric car system unless there is some huge techno breakthrough.

Reply to
Spike

"Spike" wrote I was amazed.

The other fact that seems to have been forgotten is that it takes MORE fuel to create the electricity to run the electric car, than it does just to run the car on fuel and skip the whole electric thing.

Reply to
66 6F HCS

And, coal-fired powerplants are not exactly environmentally friendly. In theory, fine, but in practice, not at all. It's counterproductive. It's all fed by half-truths and BS.

Hybrids are a similar disaster. Isn't breakeven on a hybrid like 12-15 years, compared to its gas counterpart? This guy at work is so proud he coaxed 50.7 mpg out of his Civic hybrid, but what did it cost? And how much are those powertrain parts? I would bet more marginal pollution is created in the manufacture of a hybrid vs. an equivalent gas model than it will EVER save in emissions.

The only sensible thing that's being done is increasing methanol use. I wonder about timing, gaskets, hoses, and other stuff... but it should have been phased in years ago

Reply to
Wound Up

I respect what you are saying but building capacity into the system for supplying vehicles won't happen over night and delivering electricity on a large scale happens today at thousands upon thousands of factories all over the country. If we can deliver a gallon of gas from half way around the world to damn near every neighborhood in the USA for $2/gallon then delivering electricity to supply electric cars is more than feasible and affordable. I don't see where a huge techno breakthrough is required to deliver electricity. There will hopefully be breakthroughs in generating electricity as technology advances. Sooner or later electric cars will come to the market in a meaningful way. If I could buy one at a competitive price that recharges quickly, has good range, etc. I would do it. I think the public is ready to accept them today if they were available. Even with their potential problems with maintenance, hybrids are selling quite well.

Reply to
Michael Johnson, PE

I think there is a segment of the populace which is ready to accept, but I think you'd find the vast majority are not, and for a wide range of reasons.

Reply to
Spike

If a set of batteries has a 300 mile range and can be recharged 1,000 times then that equates to 300,000 miles. How many gas engines last

300,000 miles? OTOH, IMO, electric motors are quite durable and could be engineered to last that long. Especially, if one is used at each wheel to reduce the load and power requirement of each one.

And we are also talking about far fewer refineries, gas stations, tanker ships, transport trucks, offshore oil platforms etc. too. There are plenty of places to build power plants. Fly over the continental US and see all the unused space we have. ;)

And why can't this same thing happen with electricity?

If the consumer wants it then it will happen. That is the great thing about capitalism. How do you think the oil industry came into existence? Who paid for it?

Someone said the same thing 30-40 years ago about the majority of homes having a personal computer. Now many homes have one for each person in the house. They are more common than toasters. ;)

Also, over the next 20 years there will have to be a major increase in the capacity of the electric grid whether we have electric cars or not.

Reply to
Michael Johnson, PE

It depends on how the electricity is generated. The internal combustion engine is typically only 25% efficient and the average efficiency of power plants in the US is 33%. The more modern power plants can reach efficiency levels of 50%-60%. I would say in today's world there isn't a huge difference in overall efficiency between gas and electric cars. In fact, without advances in battery technology electric cars just aren't viable.

However, as electric power plants become more efficient and alternative energy sources are developed such as wind, geothermal, tidal etc. the potential for electric cars are great. Add to this the reduction in pollution, discarded fluids etc. and to me it seems they are the logical choice to succeed the internal combustion engine sometime in the future.

Reply to
Michael Johnson, PE

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.