Cash for clunkers?

If it's a government program it has both fraud and waste.

Reply to
Brent
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As opposed to the private sector. HAH!

:()

Reply to
dwight

That's not true. There are many gvt programs that have no fraud. In fact, the vast majority have no fraud. Do they have stupidity, sure, what effort by man doesn't.

As to waste, there is plenty of waste in private industry. The main difference is that since it's "private" there is no one reviewing the decisions of the owners and calling whatever they decide that is different from what the reviewers would have done, waste.

Now going back to the original subject of the thread, which was cash4clunkers, either the CA program or the USA program, please tell us what fraud is going on and what waste is going on, both in the context of what the program was authorized to do, not in the context of what you think it *should* have been authorized to do.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

In the private sector fraud is a crime. Waste means going out of business. Once news of fraud spreads, it also means going out of business. When is the government going to go out of business? Oh that's right, we don't have a choice but to fund it, they have the guns.

Reply to
Brent

Name one. Just one.

Waste is punished in the private sector because competition without waste will take business away. In the government sector taxes are just raised.

The whole program should have never been. It's a wealth transfer from taxpayers to the autoindustry. The whole premise of the program is a fraud. It's not even good for the environment considering the resources used to build cars. It's not good for the economy because it results in more debt.

Oh... and pick:

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My favorite one browsing so far:
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Reply to
Brent

Jeeze, I know it's always in style to knock the gvt but as a long time gvt employee I can tell you that there is no fraud going on in any of the programs I'm associated with, which includes around 500 million a year in construction. The last time there was anything close to an actual fraud case was back in the 70's and the guy they were after died before they could get him. Like I said, there is always going to be stupidity, laziness, etc whether it's public or private.

That's just not true. The private sector gets away with what it can, generally quasi-legally. But that doesn't mean there isn't waste. And "competition" doesn't eliminate it if the waste is just the way all the companies in the marketplace do business. Besides, one man's waste is another man's "marketing" plan. There is also a lot of fraud in private companies as the common man understands the term fraud. For example, private companies we hire get to add on their overhead. For some companies it might be 100% extra, for others it might be 110%, some claim as high as 200%. All subject to occasional audit. Guess what happens in those audits? It's not at all uncommon to find that the owners fishing trips somehow got charged as company overhead along with the lease on his wife's Tahoe. But it's always "just an accounting error" and they would almost never get charged with fraud but everyone knows it's a scam that sometimes gets caught and sometimes doesn't.

Do you even understand the meaning of fraud in the general legal sense? there is nothing fraudulent about the program. But you keep going off on tangents of your anti-this and that philosophy. Your allegation was that the program was full of fraud and waste. As I said, within the parameters of the LAW that passed to set up the program, please provide some data for your claim. Where has anyone found fraud in the program, where is the waste, again, in the CONTEXT of the ACTUAL program, not based on the world according to Garp.

Maybe, maybe not. But even if it's not it's not fraud or waste within the program as established.

Actually it may be good for the economy. Debt is not always bad.

That's laughable but then everything coming out of Beck's mouth is laughable. I tried to find the site and notice he claimed, without proof, saying they would own your computer. Couldn't find it.

This guys allegation of fraud is similarly laughable. So he doesn't like how they calculate (accurately) the sales figures !! Poor baby.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

The good people who have government jobs think that. All it means is that you don't know what the fraud is. Ultimately there is one because it's a government program. It's been sold to take money from some people to provide for other people.

It certainly is.

I don't care about private sector waste. Why? Because it isn't my money. Nobody from the private sector can take my money from me against my will legally. The only people who can do that are in government or work for the government or with the government.

Caring about private sector waste is like caring if your neighbor trades in a new car he just bought to get a different one.

They say it's for the environment. It's not. Or do you not believe it's fraud when the government lies.

Anti-this and that? I'm anti-state. That's all.

Oh within the parameters the theives set up... then it's not fraud... lol.

You bring your car into a mechanic because it isn't running right. He tells you the engine is shot. You get to talking and end up selling it to him cheap because the engine is shot. He lied. It's just a bad sensor. He stayed within the program he established. It's not fraud.

Yeah, and heroin is a cure for heroin addiction.

It's the way government does accounting for everything. It's all 'juked'.

Reply to
Brent

It's pointless to attempt a discussion with you. You won't or can't defend your own claims and your counterpoints are never on point. Still, it's fun to watch you froth.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

A bunch of blathering bullshit. You don't even know what projects he is talking about nor do you know his position in those projects. You're blabbering and opinion out your ass.

Show me some proof.

Reply to
WindsorFo

I've lived in c(r)ook county illinois enough years to understand nothing gets done in government unless someone is getting something. The idea that government is a force of good and selflessness is naive nonsense.

Also, every government program is about taking something from some people to give it to other people. The government has nothing it didn't take from someone. Even if it bought it from a willing seller it took the money from somebody to pay for it.

Reply to
Brent

You really are rather inexperienced in this area.

Reply to
WindsorFo

Why is GM still in business given their level of waste?

That's right, the US federal government took wealth from the people and gave it to GM. Only the government can support that kind of waste forever. Even the mighty GM must eventually fail if left on its own.

Reply to
Brent

What waste are you talking about? The fact is, GM was saddled with legacy costs which cost them about $1000+ per car. So in order to built, lets say an Impala, that was about the same as the competition's products in features and performance and price they had to do it for $1000 less in parts and labor then their competition. And they did it. Now you may argue if you wish that their product wasn't "good enough" for you or whoever, but the fact is it was for all intents and purposes the same product as far as basic form and function as what anyone else was putting out and they did it with $1000 less money in order to sell it at the same or lower price. That's not waste, that's tremendous efficiency of design and assembly. It is also extremely likely that if the economy had not tanked, mostly thanks to the horrendous policies and decisions of bush, jr, GM probably would not have needed to go bankrupt.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

So what you're saying is that GM's problems were all the government's fault. There's a lot that was. But the idea that GM was waste free is absurd.

Reply to
Brent

How do you read that into it. I said their problems, which were not the gvt's fault, would probably have been solvable, but the depression we are in screwed them and a lot of other business.

So point out some GM waste that amounts to enough to sink them. You're always Johnny on the spot to say everyone is corrupt and there is waste but you never seem to be able to give any specifics to back up your claims. And you need to come up with systemic waste, not some anecdote about a $600 hammer.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

Incorrect. I used to cite stuff frequently. Then people would just call me names, ignore the cites, or simply say the cites weren't good enough, called those who wrote the stories kooks, etc and so forth. Now I just don't bother.

Waste and GM go back a long way. The fiero story is enough to see that. I still remember one way they caught fire... see the exec in charge of the connecting rod plant got paid a bonus based on production volume out the door. Just volume. So, quality control and quality was sacrificed to maximize his bonus. Some huge percentage of the con-rods were bad. Fieros would throw a con rod through the block and the hot oil would then set something on fire in the close confines...

Reply to
Brent

That's not waste. Your claim was that gm was just chock full of waste. Waste would be if instead of taking their aluminum machining scrap to a recycler they just buried it under the parking lot.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

Paying people to make garbage parts isn't waste... lol.

*sigh* you just have one narrow definition after another.
Reply to
Brent

No, I use precision in my writing to avoid confusion. You reveal in using imprecise terms to avoid responsibility for your statements. Either that you don't really understand the meaning of most of the words you use.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

Whether or not he understands the words he uses, he correctly evaluates their effect on you, as you are led down the garden path to the bridge under which he resides.

Reply to
Frank ess

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