Changes I'd Make To The 2011 GT

The 1980s were a long time ago and galaxie far far away. Even so, the difference between a 5.0L LX and a GT was mostly missing trim. They didn't have power brakes or PS removed or AC deleted etc and so forth. R models have never been significant production volume.

How could be using something that doesn't support tab characters?

Could just keep building 80's five oh's forever?

I'm not talking extravagant. I'm talking a couple big molds to produce some rather blah nylon 6 pieces to make a platform. Now if you want the weight of metal, then stampings are somewhat cheaper.

By that statement it's pretty clear you don't understand what ram-air consists of. It's not just a place to get fresh colder air. Inside the fender works for that.

Wrong. Cost. That above is the excuse ford gives. And drag race scoring is done such that you're not winning races by .001s.

what the axle does on a frost heave is not ride quality. In poor conditions it's downright 'is this car going to have the ass end come around?'. Now I really know you just don't understand.

As far as sporty car sacrifice, even ford has realized they couldn't keep things the way they were.

suzanne (suzanne???) remarked that there was a market for motorcycles "without all the fairings" Some of them are called "cruisers" and we buy them without tupperware because we like our bikes to be without tupperware... We buy V twins ( you can already tell I ride a Harley, yes?) because we like V twins.

They didn't build a bike for me... my taste suited a bike they already built (well.... that and a few extra bucks for deviations from the norm.... ).

I bought a 2005 Mustang with a nearly unusable back seat... Having it or not having it wouldn't be a big deal for me... (well that may be stretching it) but lacking it would likely be a deal breaker for some.

If a specialty car is what you seek.. buy a specialty car.... (a friend has a Viper for sale 2006 with about 2000 kms on it) but do not pretend to turn a car I would buy into a car I wouldn't buy.

Matter of fact... I can take your Mustang and get rid of the back seat... get rid of the power windows.. make all manner of changes. And do it quite handsomely, I might add..

Bring your credit card.....

I think there's still has to be a sizable market for budget performance cars. Surely, I can't be the only one left in America.

IIRC, the GT came standard with A/C. The LX didn't. I special ordered my '87 5.0 LX without A/C, power windows, locks, mirrors. Mine weighed just under 3,000 lbs. Most GTs at the time weighed about

3,300 and many of their owners couldn't understand why my LX was faster than their GT.

Granted, but they did show the appeal a stripped-down racer carries.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 7/8* =A0 =A01970 =A0 =A0Focus

9 =A0 =A02011 =A0 =A0Pinto =A0 2 door 3.7 =A0 =A094 =A0 =A0 =A0103

.6 =A0 163 =A0 =A0 174.9

=A0 =A064.66 =A0 69.4 =A0 =A066.9

Nope, just 80's dimensions with the latest car's styling and power. Now THAT would be magic!

No metal. Maybe just use vinyl matting like what's in my wife's [Honda] Element. Even better use that type of vinyl matting over the entire floor and get rid of all the carpeting.

You got me... I'm clueless... been a car enthusiast for nearly 40 years and haven't learned a thing.

I think you're right. And isn't it true you can also get a little ram- air effect at speed from a ram-air setup?

So it appears we agree cooler air is better. And can we agree outside air [from a scoop] could be a bit cooler than air being pulled from inside a fender [at very low speeds]? And air being pushed down a tube and into the motor at 40, 50, 60+ mphs could also reap some performance benefits? After all, scores of drag racers, who run ram- air hood scoops, couldn't be wrong, could they? I mean it all amkes sense to me me, but you're the expert.

That's the way you read it. I read it that Ford knows Mustang buyers like to drag race. And drag racers prefer straight axles.

Good catch and my bad math. Remove a zero.

Yep, you got me again. I only grew up in the always-balmy state of Michigan and used to love playing in the slick stuff, but don't know what you're talking about. Because I don't recall ever seeing/running over frost heaves.

I'm not asking for things to stay the same. If that were true, I'd keep my '93 Cobra and cancel my special-ordered '11 GT (Note: The dealer found the same exact car as the one I'm ordering, except it was white, in the Ford inventory. Hmm.. maybe there are others out there who like less-optioned cars.) I'm only asking that in the future:

Ford reduces the dimensions/weight of the Mustang. Ford _offers_ a functioning ram-air hood. Ford offers a less-optioned V8 Mustang. (Like a modern V8 LX.)

Patrick

V6 mustang. 305hp. That's what a cobra got you way back when.

You want a stripped down 400hp car. 400hp costs. The vast majority of people who can buy a new 400+hp car are not going to live with a stripped bear bones piece of otherwise basic transportation.

But they cost more than loaded GT.

not sellable. You can't get many people to pay for four hundred horsepower and the drivetrain and suspension to deal with it and live without what are basic things found in even entry level cars these days.

You're acting like you don't know what the mechanisms are.

This is at best tenths of a horsepower. You can't be putting on a mechanism prone to getting dirty, jamming up, gaskets to deteroriate, exposed to all sorts of crap for tiny fractions of horsepower on a car that is for 99.9% of drivers a STREET CAR, one the vast majority will drive all year in all conditions. One of the reasons to get a mustang instead of a lot of other cars is they aren't as sensitive to every little thing. They can be put out in the weather.

very few percentage wise actually drag race. I know this, ford knows this. If more than 3% of all mustangs made see a drag strip I'll be surprised.

Drag racing is scored to my knowledge by consistancy between runs.

Come to IL. the recently resurfaced bishop-ford freeway (formally calumet expressway) had many frost heaves for the first couple miles on the south end of the NB side.

The number of people who wanted a 400hp stripper were always very few. Cars like '69 hard tops with 428SCJs and dog dish hub caps on steel wheels are very rare.

Thats bracket racing, not drag racing.

regardless, putting in a ram air system with all it's downsides on a modern street car because 1% of 1% might see a benefit to 'win' by a tiny fraction of a second is silly.

Sure, ram air doesn't have much problem for a trailered car that only sees sunny days at the race track... but that isn't the great majority of mustangs. Even as an option it wouldn't be useful to enough buyers to justify the tooling and development cost.

Good point. (Though those Cobras were a bit lighter.) However, how many would jump at 412HP Mustang with a sticker at around $28K? I for one have a few friends who love the new 5L GT, but balk at the thought of paying over $30G to get one, and also think the V8 version has become too pricey. I know a couple grand less isn't much when you're financing, but for some a sales person saying a price a few under under $30 is more appealing, much like a store using .99 price tag.

In these economic times, I wouldn't be so sure about that.

But that was marketing, not reality pricing.

Note: I only said dimensions of the 80's Mustang. Not the old suspension and trans.

I simply listed one of the benefits of ram-air -- cooler air. Rest assured I understand the mechanisms.

Another benefit is adding a little macho. And real is better. I've heard many "car guys/girls" who commented on how cool a scoop looks, but after closer inspection see it's non-functional/no opening then change their opinion to something like "oh, that's cheesy".

Reminder: I only want a ram-air scoop to be an option.

Options =3D potential profits.

Have you been to a local drag strip lately? Late-model Mustangs seem to pretty popular.

Commented corrected by another poster.

The last time I drove into Michigan the difference between the Ohio side and Michigan side of the interstate was startling. The Michigan side looked/felt like military jets had used the Michigan interstate to practice bombing runs.

And I must note: Very cool!

I still say trim the dimensions of the next generation car back to Fox numbers. And offer a less-optioned V8 car.

As for wish 1. Trimming pounds is the manufacturers next frontier. Better mileage numbers have been mandated, so cutting the fat is next logical choice.

As for wish 2. Ford officials have been hinting a less-optioned V8 car is in discussions.

Patrick

I'd love a brand new aston martin vantage for $10K, but it isn't going to happen. Today's regular V8 mustang is now operating in areas that are beyond many of the most special mustangs of the past.

In these economic times you get customers who can buy it all or nothing as per the article on ford limiting GT500 to maintain 'exclusivity'.

Welcome to ford products. But we don't know the breakdown. In any case the production was very low.

That's what I wrote. Buy a four hundred horsepower car with all needed to deal with it... Nobody is going to buy that in a package with roll up windows, no sound deadening, cheaply made interior, no AC, no PS, etc and so forth. It's not going to work. All that money to have a powerful car and cut out the little things, which are cheap commodity stuff these days? it's not worth it for the very tiny percentage of people who want that.

And how are you going to justify the tooling, development, and warranty costs on it? You're getting just about nothing in HP to appeal to the cosmetic desires of a small group of buyers. It doesn't make sense or cents.

So it's just a gaget. nothing more. Like countless others over automotive history. You might as well argue for a turn table poping out of the dash to play 45rpm records. Sure it's cool but technology passed it by a long time ago.

Which drives up the per unit costs and makes it even harder to justify the development work & costs. And instead of the EPA testing of one engine, now you have to do it TWICE!

Would you pay say, $1000 for it? Because for ford and its stealerships to make the profits on it that's about what it would need to cost. You're looking at a quarter million dollars easy to offer that option.

Ford makes roughly 150,000 mustangs a year. How many of those owners do you think are serious enough about drag racing to care? 5000? Think about it. If 5000 people for each model year drag race, that's hundreds of thousands of people, yet it's only a very tiny percentage of mustang owners/buyers.

I've found the Mustang you want -- lighter, lower, and quicker. In fact, I've found a couple of 'em:

2011 Ford 2011 Chevy 2011 Ferrari Mustang GT Corvette 458 Italia 5.0L V8 6.2L V8 4.5L V8 ------------ ------------ ------------ Length 188.1 in. 174.6 in. 178.2 in. Width 73.9 in. 72.6 in. 76.3 in. Height 55.8 in. 49.1 in. 47.8 in. Wh.Base 107.1 in. 105.7 in. 104.3 in. Weight 3603 lbs. 3208 lbs. 3042 lbs. Backseat Cramped None None Perform. Quick Quicker Quickest MSRP $30K $49K $225K

When I win the lottery, I may park a Ferrari or a 'Vet in one bay of my (new) garage, and something with a backseat in another bay. Until then, the Mustang GT is the most appealing toy of all backseat-mobiles.

Think of it this way. Buyers asked for more retro-styled pony cars and we got them, three of them -- Mustang, Camaro and Challenger. Buyers asked for larger displacement, higher horsepower, more fuel efficient V8s, and delivered were: 412HP 5-liter/550 HP 5.4-liter, 425 HP 6.1 liter (soon to be a near 500 HP 6.4 liter), and a 426 HP 6.2- liter. Buyers also asked for 6-speed transmissions, better brakes, etc, etc, etc.

Geeze, why do you act like the current Mustang is the pinnacle? That it can't get any better? I say hold on buddy, be an optimist, the future will only get brighter.

Today's regular V8 mustang is now operating in areas that

Exactly my point above! Thanks for restating it. Next up is weight reduction, and a de-contented 5-liter V8 model because both both are coming. Why you ask? Because buyers want it and the competition in the auto biz is fierce. (Proof: 1) The Shelby lost over 100 pounds this year. 2) "...Ford has been giving serious consideration to a de- contented 5-liter V8 in six-cylinder trim, just like the old days."

-- PHR July 2010)

That's a very bad example. There's only so much market for near $60G Shelby Mustangs. And Ford has always limited the production of their high-end Mustangs, even during the booming 90s.

Right. But that doesn't mean a lesser-optioned V8 car sold at a lower price wouldn't be a seller. (The Rs were low option, high dollar.)

You don't need power windows to "deal with" 400HP.

Though appealing to me, I'm not asking for no sound deadening. Only that the rear seat be optional and to replace the carpeting with vinyl.

I'm only asking for a base level V6 interior -- no blue tooth, 12- speaker Mach 9 radio, or whatever the numbers are up to, multi-color gauges, etc. And better designed, read more comfortable/bolstered, seats.)

I'd be tempted. But with traffic now often flowing at 75+ mph, going windows down doesn't work as well as it used to.

Nope. The new electric P/S is cool with me.

etc

That's the shit that adds up. Christ, they wanted a extra few grand for the upgraded interior. I told them sorry, I'd rather use that cash for performance -- give me the Brembos instead.

But I'm sure there are others who just want a sweet-sounding, burbling V8 Mustang at the lowest price possible.

Image sells. That's why we have retro designs and accents. And ram- air adds to that image.

Note: I said "another benefit".

They did it for the '03-'04 Mach 1s.

Or they could get an aftermarket manufacturer to supply it to them. I'm sure there would be more than a few companies willing to be the supplier.

And the rest couldn't tell you what sort of suspension is under their new Mustang. All they know is it rides comparable to, or better than, the competitions. Because the 2011 GT's suspension does.

Patrick

I'm not. I'm saying you're asking for something buyers don't want, a stripped down car without any of the typical comforts of a small entry level car and 400+hp and light weight cutting edge materials all for a low low price of ford focus or something. You can demand that all you want but you're not going to get it because that's just the way things are. Your demands and balance point are way out of wack with 99+% of mustang buyers.

Stop pretending your strawman is some sort of reality, thanks.

You do realize that "6 cylinder trim" is going to retain all the things you don't want, including power windows. It's not going to weigh much different.

The list price isn't even close to 60 grand. The reason the price gets that high is because ford cares more about stealerships surcharging than it does actual customers. Regardless, people have the cash or they don't. They are going to buy a nice car or they aren't. Nobody who is tight on money right now is going to buy a new stripped down 400hp V8 car. It's just a stupid way to go if you're short on cash.

Yeah, and lots of people used R's to go to work and back every day. Not.

Are you just intentionally being an ass? I don't have time for these stupid games of yours. That's not what I wrote, there's no way to even see it that way. At this point I have to conclude you're doing this intentionally.

You want lots of weight ripped out, I'm telling you where it has to come from.

Which won't save any significant weight. The 6 cylinder stereo systems, electronics, etc don't weigh any less to any degree you couldn't accomplish by skipping breakfeast.

I doubt the electric motor weighs any less. That has to do with emissions and fuel economy not the weight of the components. It's just easier to deal with the higher alternator load than have direct drive of a hydraulic pump.

Those are cheap commodity items TO FORD. They aren't going to bring the cost TO FORD down much, and thus the final PRICE to the customer isn't going to be much lower unless ford and the stealerships decide to make less on it.

BTW, If you're going to line item an upgraded interior on a lower trimmed car model it's going to cost you because ford wants you to buy the model package that it comes in. That's how marketing works. They do that intentionally.

Yeah, smaller than the insignificant number of people who liked 428SCJ hardtops with dog dish hubcaps and no AC. The same kind of people who would order 7 liter galaxies without PS so their wife would not be able to drive it. These people are few.

Your modern 'decontented' V8 is going to have nearly everything on it, weigh nearly the same, and the actual cost of the vehicle is going to be about the same.

So says the guy who doesn't want anything that adds weight or cost. You'll take a very costly and heavy way to get a tenth of an hp.

The mach 1's had OTHER engine changes too. Maybe you'll find it on a special model in the future.

You don't understand how this works. If they get it from the aftermarket supplier they still have to pay the tooling charges, they still have to warranty it, they still have to certify it epa wise, etc and so on. Here's a hint, ford isn't actually making a lot of the parts themselves anyway, they get them from suppliers.

WTF? Now only people who drag race their mustangs know anything? Sounds like you're just trying to be insulting to salvage an argument that is just dead wrong. The live axle is there because it costs less for Ford. Period. If IRS cost less ford would tell the drag racers about how they feel it makes for a more consistent launch or something.

I've never asked for '"lightweight cutting edge materials".

Odd then that Ford is discussing introducing a de-contented V8, huh? Seems the percentages you're pulling out of your butt are off more than a bit.

You need to stop pretending your marketing numbers are reality. Because Ford wouldn't even be discussing a de-contended V8 if it was only going to appeal to less than a percent of the buyers, now would they?

I think Ford's true goal with a de-contented model, more so than a weight reduction, is a low entry level V8 price they can advertise. Get 'em in and looking for a $27K-$28K 400+ Mustang, then try to sell the options.

MSRP =3D $47K and change. I remembered the $55.3K as-tested price C&D listed for their GT500 with the SVT performance package and electronics package. (Note: A fully loaded a GT500 goes for $57.7K.)

That's your rational mind speaking. But emotions often drive car purchases, especially performance/specialty models, so saying it would be a stupid way to go if you're short of cash probably isn't what many buyers are thinking in the showroom.

But you're conveniently forgetting the Rs were marketed as "future collectibles". Add in their high price and rarity and that's why their owners didn't drive them back and forth to work.

Now offer a lower priced, less-optioned V8 (than the GT) -- i.e the

80's LX 5.0 -- and you have them flying off dealer lots and folks driving them everyday back and forth to work.

Geeze, take a joke. (Remember: You're rational, so stop being emotional.)

Under 3,500 for the current design would be nice. And those engineeers are smart. Tell them to lose 100 pounds from the car and I trust they could do it.

I'm also talking about future models where weight reduction can be designed in. The 370 Z is 100 pounds lighter than its predecessor, and the Vette has trimmed quite a bit of weight over the years.

Have you ever gutted a car? Apparently not, because you'd be surprised at the amount of weight you can find.

Marketing also works by advertising a low[er]-entry level price and then hopefully selling them on additional options once you get them in the door. Ford wants buyers to think, and remember, their base V8 Mustang is significantly lower priced than the competitions.

I guess if you are with folks who like driving living rooms on wheels. But the enthusiasts I talk to think bang-for-the-buck matters.

Sounds like we might find out the numbers for real.

You're confused. I didn't say it was for me. I asked for it to be an option, a way Ford could make a few extra bucks.

Yes, but it was relatively low-production. Ford could probably sell as many/or more ram-air hoods.

You probably know the next one is a new Boss 302. The old Boss 302 had an optional ram-air/shaker style hood, so who knows.

Patrick