Ford, GM have discussed merger, alliance

The government doesn't protect management from free gratis overtime. Just protects "labor," not anyone.

Well, they're not crazy. They could build plants somewhere that they'd need to deal with a union plus spend millions in bribes. They just don't want to. They'd rather receive millions in bribes.

No, it's the other way 'round. Most people know way better than auto workers. Every other manufacturer has to compete with China, Taiwan, Romania, etc etc., but not Ford and GM. People inside the auto business don't know what competition is yet. With the sky-high cost of labor in Japan and Europe, GM and Ford are not up against anything but better run businesses. They have never had to compete with cheap labor. Never. They got in the shape they're in just out of sheer inbred stupidity, plus their small-town-crook dealers driving their customers away.

However, good things don't last forever. The Koreans can build a good car now. After China figures it out, that's a whole 'nuther ballgame. It's a ballgame that everybody else has already played. Autoworkers need to look around at U.S. manufacturing and see what's coming. Entire industries can just vanish from the US, and already have. Fertilizer, furniture, shoes, clothing, electronics, textiles, methanol, all pretty much gone. Others, like steel, are merely shrunk, and some others, like basic plastics, are just doomed to never making any money again forever. GM and Ford snoozed right through the deaths of all these industries.

That's just part of the story. Failure is the result of success. I agree with Brad- you can't stop it. Certainly politics has never stopped it. That's just ridiculous. It ain't ever been done.

Very important. I blame the dealers as much or more than the product. That's just my opinion.

I agree. American autoworkers certainly don't make any more than Japanese and German ones. Plus, GM and Ford have scale that has always been bigger than everybody else. I know Toyota is just as big as GM, but GM had an 80 year head start where it was bigger. That should still have some value.

While it's true japanese makes convinced owners to care for the cars better, even with quick oil changes it wasn't that good.

Motor oil has improved a great deal as have gasoline additives. See the gasoline FAQ and oil certification grades.

And it hasn't been for close to 30 years now in most states. What I was refering to was valve seat wear, which may or may not be a myth.

I have no clue what the joke is supposed to be here. A lot of times I think people fail to grasp the obvious. Unthinking sarcasm has a way of backfiring.

The Pinto was a much hardier design than a 1980 Tercel, but different. The

1980 Tercel probably got better gas mileage, but it wasn't much of a car. It wasn't meant to be. A 1971 Toyota is a tough little car, but so's a Pinto. Here's how we know:

The Pinto had many derivative products, because it was well-designed. People just don't remember stuff like that. They can only remember what the media told them about the gas tank. For instance, the engine that they used, wherever it came from, remained in production for 40 years because it was a quality item. There were racing series based on it and it appeared in all sorts of new and kit-built autos and industrial applications in markets all over the world. Does everybody remember that? Wasn't on the news, was it? It was the standard Ford Ranger engine for a couple of decades, during which that product led in its market. Remember? Also, the suspension of the Pinto caught on for customized construction and that is still being produced today and used in lots of high-dollar one-off stuff. It doesn't currently appear that it'll ever go out of style. It amazes me. Obviously the junkyards are long empty of Pintos, and they have to make all that stuff brand new.

The body of a Pinto isn't going to win any awards, but Pintos were certainly far less rust-prone than 1970's Japanese cars. There's no contest there. I hope that's obvious to everybody. If you disagree with that, you just don't remember the 70's. My daily driver is a 1970's Japanese car. I know.

Somebody said that the 2XX,000 mile Pinto wasn't the norm. I think he was just making that up. I haven't seen any data on that.

The Vega, which was similar to a Pinto, was its complete opposite. It was worse than the Japanese cars in every way. The worst point was its motor, of course, but it still had a great ability to rust. It just shows that being American wasn't all that important of a consideration. Quality speaks for itself, wherever you're from.

With a few keystrokes, you can just wipe away 30 years of materials engineering? That makes no sense.

Not if you buy a car and a refrigerator. More like a 4 figure salary.

The important thing is, it was a different reliable in those days. In 1960, everybody had to set the points in their cars. They did it without complaining. Tires lasted 10,000 miles. You might need a valve job a couple of times on the way to 100,000 miles. A good battery cost $50, and they still do 50 years later.

You can argue about this, but it's so obvious that you really shouldn't. Better to just accept that people look back on air cooled volkswagens that had a full overhaul after 50,000 miles and they remember how "reliable" they were. If you carried your tool box with you all the time, plus a spare set of points and a voltage regulator, they were reliable, except when they were vapor-locked. It's a different idiom, the reliability of today.

Like I said, you can argue, but I don't advise it. It's too obviously true. Cars are much more long-lasting today, but it doesn't seem so, only because people have changed.

Why? so he can pay more for less of the same thing also made in China, somewhere else? How silly!

Better to realize that Walmart is responsible for the lower Middle Class still having some standard of living!

And the Darling of the Lefties, GEORGE SOROS..is going to be making a killing on it, it's already started, he's a core investor.

Another way to look at it is the Chinese abandoned the Russian model in favor of the Japanese model... and are going the way of Market Economy, albeit National socialst in nature

Bullhockey.. the family might have lived there for centuries, but only at the whim of Peking

No they dont, that's the problem... it's retirement pesions and medical care that's the burden. Congress and the Unions should have realized this and switched ALL Pension and med to a government-overseen corporation with revenue from an auto sales excise tax. So even if you bought a foreign import it was supporting the US autoworker

Well, maybe... Better if the existing parties were less concerned about their graft and staying in, or regaining power, and did what's right.

Oh lords of usenet forgive me for I made a typo. correction below:

'indicating the problems were _not_ in the engine'

$5000 in 1900 translates to over $100,000 in today's money. And by 1900 prices, the buying power of that dollar.

And it would cost about $5 in 1960 dollars now. The manufacturing advances have simply kept up with the decline in value of the dollar for that item.

Or one could have shelled out a little more for a maverick instead of a

1930s car (the bug).

Give a good late 60s model the following:

1) modern rust protection. 2) modern fluids. 3) at least a 1980s grade engine management system

You'll see reliability very close to that of today.

The proof is in the fact that many of the 1960s engines made it into the

80s and 90s. Not to mention some of the 70s platforms.

The valve seat wear was a myth as far as lead stopping it. Its why a valve job was considered routine maintenance. Lead's sole purpose for being added to gasoline was to stop knock..Ethyl alcohol was one of the first additives for knock prevention, and gasoline with ethyl commanded a higher price than "white gas". But Dupont got their hands on GM, and used their clout to push lead, which they produced. In my younger days any shop that did major repairs had a valve grinder, and valve seat stones and guides, and valve guide knurlers, knowing how to use them was part of being a mechanic, lapping in valves was job often given to apprentices and was done by hand with a dowel. Today I would wager that maybe 10% of mechanics know how to do a valve job, its now a machinists job, if you can find a machine shop any more. Then again cylinder heads today are throw away items.

Whitelightning

They haven't followed any sort of Japanese model on any level.

You just said I was full of shit and then agreed with me.

King Richard the second here in chicago sure made ford a sweet deal as I recall.

As corporations want those burdens transfered to the taxpayers. Take it with a grain of salt.

Who do I get to tax for my pension and health care?

They will never be interested in what is right.

razz,

uh - okay. you are right. the americans are building better cars than toyota. i really should open my eyes to the market, the product and the corporate conspiracies. ;) Harry

i agree with you completely Joe. Harry in Montreal

A more likely name is Malcolm Bricklin, who brought to America the Bricklin sports car (the police-officer-trapping-Bricklin-sports-car - he couldn't open the electrically operated gull wing door) and the Yugo

It's the Japanese model that is (or was) more like the Soviet model. China's system is closer to 19th century capitalism, only with even less of a long term view. Their primary aim is to cut costs, meaning they don't want to spend anything for longterm planning, and their electronics manufacturers do virtually nothing but copy chip manufacturers' reference designs, including the bugs, and package them in plastic cases. It's almost as if the Chinese simply want to make as much money as possible in the near term. In contrast the Japanese saw knockoffs as stepping stones to better products in the future.

By "National socialist," do you mean German-style fascism, which was socialist only in name, except perhaps for health care, which China's government no longer wants to provide for free (so in case of emergency, bring cash to the hospital).

It's only a dream for China and India to again own 75% of the world's wealth, as they did until the 16th century, but in reality the developed world will remain much wealthier than China because the things that made it wealthy in the first place - political freedom, free markets, universal education, and a generally ethical society - are those things that tend to keep nations wealthy.

Holy shit. Get your facts straight. Not once did I say domestics are building better cars.

Didn't you just state (rudely) "better quality my a$$" ? PLEASE CLARIFY THEN !

Didnt you start citing you experience as a 'toy' mechanic at a 'toy store' to say that US automaker's quality is at least the same as a toy?

Didnt you start citing the impartiality of commercial auto mags (which i agree with you, by the way) - implying that they are all biased to overstate the reliability and quality of japanese cars (i disagree with you here) ?

So, all together now - i think that you truly believe that a Ford is as good as a Toyota. It seems like you do, especially since you chose to purchase 2.

If i am wrong on all this, then tell me..... *** Are Fords just as good (or better) as a toyota from a quality and reliability perspective? *** No need to swear either, just try to be clear and concise.

Thanks, Harry in Montreal.

Obviously you have a poor comprehension disability. I stated what I saw and learned as a toy mech. NOWHERE did I say domestics were built better. And yes I do believe there are domestics built very well. I'm not partial to any auto maker,( and have owned lots of different manufacturers ), except for the old 60's-early 70's muscle cars. Yes there are shit vehicles like the cavalier, but what do expect from a $10,000 car, but I've also seen shit cars from the japs. I remember at the dealership I worked at, calling in customers cars for routine checks and free services during the head gasket fiascal at Toyo, which by the way also affected the domestics. They replaced the gaskets without telling the customers. Our Honda accord had worn cam lobes at 30,000 ks, my toyo had gasket problems all the time, and cv problems constantly, so far the fords have not caused any problems. But to be fair , my mustang is a fair weather vehicle, I rebuilt the whole motor at

yes, my comprehension disability is very poor. you are correct, i have strong comprehension skills. that aside, from you clear answers to my questions, i am happy that we agree that japanese cars are better designed and the quality is superior.

saying that 'domestics are built very well' is a pretty strong statement. i suppose they are when you compare them to Daewoo products. oops, they are GM too.

Harry in montreal

you typed to fast again. you meant that i do not have good comprehenSION skills. i think that my comprehension skills are exactly that - comprehenSIVE and complete!

anyway, i am no etimologist (i think that is how it is spelled). i'll drop it. back to ford...

i just wanted to point out to you that if you start challenging the quality of a Toy product (media bias, coverups, etc.), and you seem to think that Ford builds 'very good' cars, and you have chosen to own them, then you must be asserting that they are of comparable quality and equally reliable. i disagree. i have owned 3 mustangs (93, 96,01), a 98 z28, and 3 toyotas (98 4run, 03 rav, 03 4run). i have skipped the

81 honda, 88 subie, 78 malibu, 81 volvo, 90 acura, 01 echo, and 85 ciera, 91 stealthTT. overall, i have found the Toy and Honda cars to be far better. but i have loved my mustangs. they had better personality. i dont think they had good quality, nor were of good design. keep in mind (i think you have a 01 GT?) that there is a gas tank between your rear bumper and your diff. this is an antiquated design that is very poor and dangerous in the event of a bad impact. kinda like a pinto actually. that pretty much sums up the brilliant designs and engineering skills of Ford's crack squad. and i do not care that it is built on the old Fox fairmont platform etc.etc. They have chosen to sell a car on a 25 year old platform, to save money, and maximize profit. clearly their plunging market share every quarter reflects the results of this profit/quality trade off ! i know what you stated about those V6 toyota motors failing is true. but look at what a 10 year old 4 runner is worth compared to a ford explorer of the same year. even with a leaky motor, i rather take the 10 year old Toyo on the highway over the ford any day. regardless, i am not attacking 'your' brand, i sure do miss my old 93 5.0 lx. Harry in Montreal.