Two kinds of idiots

what about the idiots in mustangs?

hurc ast

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1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8" w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16

Yea, you may be right about the alarm thing BUT It's cool as hell when some sticky fingered little brat is about to paw print your stang and you hit the horn button and scare the shit out of him Or they are fiddling with a shopping cart that's dangerously close to dinging your car Or when some dope is about to door ding you getting in or out of their car and you wake them up with a quick tap on the button.

Hubs and I do it to each other sometimes as a joke... no is trying to inpress anyone. But it makes both of us laugh when we make the other one jump. He gets me more often than I get him.

So my question Rich is: Who did what to make you angry?

As far as those that go onto freeways slowly... I agree completely. I've seen allot of near misses because of that.

Kate "Beep-Beep!!"

On a limited access highway where lane discipline is practiced, a wide speed variance is easy and safely delt with. Only in the USA is this a problem, because lane discipline is practically non-existant in much of the nation.

Lane discipline is why a 911 and 2CV can be on the autobahn at the same time.

It's true, what you say, and yet, at the same time, it is a HUGE oversimplification.

The Autobahn has drivers everyday who risk heavy fines by not complying with lane discipline, and there are plenty of MAJOR accidents, and scores of citations which bear this out.

Second, you fail to take into account the broad spectrum of traffic flow patterns; ranging from dense metro traffic to sparse rural traffic. You fail to take into account that each requires a totally different approach to driving. What works in the city does not work in the country, and vice versa. You fail to take into account the composition of the drivers; young, old, experience, new, etc. And you fail to note that the Autobahn is not without speed limits imposed as it approaches metropolitan zones. That 911 must slow down and comply with everyone else.

Twenty years of law enforcement has shown me that there is a wide range of reasons for accidents. Lane discipline is only one factor.

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1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8" w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16

No, it's not. lane discipline is very simple.

The autobahn has a lower death rate than the US interstate. It's safer. Yeah, the speed kills morons who prefer letting people who drive as well as their dog out on the road will point to a spectactular crash for the emotional reaction, much like you are doing, but the facts are the facts, disciplined driving is safe driving.

I feel safer driving 100+mph on the autobahn than at any speed on a US interstate. The predictability and discipline of drivers makes it a good environment to drive, the speed is irrelevant.

You think Germany doesn't have such varied conditions? think again.

As far as lane discipline, not at all. I do it in conditions people say it's supposedly impossible in. I do so frequently. The reason they find it impossible is because they don't want to try or just use it as a crutch to defend their poor driving.

Bullshit. Only in places like the USA where disciplined driving is practically unheard of is this true. In fact, the mentality of the USA is to force non-scalable techniques that worked ok in rural Kansas in 1932 to all conditions in the 21st century. This one of the reasons we have so much congestion, especially on surface streets.

People are actually being taught to wait 2-3 seconds _after_ the car in front of them gets moving to start moving themselves. So not only is there a slinky effect from people not paying attention, it's actually being encouraged to be made WORSE. This concept works in a town with 5 cars in it, but when there are 10s of vehicles that have to get through each cycle, it fails miserably, people don't make it through and one light starts backing up into the next.

In Germany, there is even heavier traffic using a road laid out in the

17th century, but with better flow because people are disciplined about their driving and when the light turns green they all go practically at the same moment, with near zero slinky effect.

As if the rest of the world doesn't have that.

Did I mention speed limits? No. Some of it does have speed limits, but you better still keep your ass to the right if you're not passing. The speed is irrelevant, that's the point. The safety comes from disciplined driving, not people driving willy-nilly and trying to make them go slow enough so they don't hit each other too hard.

Let me guess from the above, like most cops on revenue patrol you prefer (because of what you've been taught) that we have a bunch of morons driving around, hitting each other a lot, and trying to control the degree of damage with a hopeless (but profitable) effort to make them go slower.

This hasn't worked, it won't work, it will never work. Speed enforcement with no effort paid towards disciplined driving just doesn't help anything but the coffers of government. You cannot have safe roadways where people are allowed to cut each other off, practice no lane discipline, are unable to merge, accelerate, turn or brake but speed is enforced sort-a-kinda-late-at-night etc.

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1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8" w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16

I have to agree. On I-25, the posted speed limit is 75, most people go

80-90, but there will ALWAYS be the assclown in the left lane going SLOWER than the traffic, causing people to have to go into the right lane to pass his/her sorry ass. These drivers are much greater hazards to the roads than speeders or tailgaters. It's a pity that they can't be shot on sight.

Investigation? I've been studying this topic for years. Last time this sort of subject came up, I provided cite after cite after cite backing up my views and got nothing but your style of arguement by declaration in return.

That will most likely happening obeying the assinine 45mph INTERSTATE speed limits in these parts when the semis are doing 65+

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1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8" w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16

WTF?

Unless this nation adopts disciplined driving, things are only going to get worse. We certainly won't be able to add enough lanes to make up for not having it.

I still do not see where, with evidence that many users of the Autobahn violate lane discipline every day (and that's according to the Autobahn enforcement and management divisions), you expect to get everyone to fall in line like good little soldiers and stick to this practice. You can't do it there with strict enforcement, how do you expect to see compliance anywhere? But what do I know... I'm just a "revenue" cop with 20+ years experience. You have all the answers. Go fix it.

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1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8" w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16

I didn't argue they violated it, I argue they follow it far more than US drivers. And they do so without much in the way of enforcement. There is very sparse enforcement on the autobahn, and when there is, they go after things like tailgating, as that is the major problem there last I heard. If we only had it so good.

I expect drivers to show real courtesy to other road users.

If I were to adopt your principles, I would ride my cannondale (that's a bicycle) in the center of the left lane of a 40+mph arterial. (I'm a pretty fast rider too, but I am not 40mph fast)

To use your arguement, above, all speed enforcement should stop as a useless waste of time. But it doesn't.

How much time and effort is spent on speeding tickets? How much time and effort is spent trying to catch criminals by stopping vehicles hoping to find one? If you want enforcement, redirect the resources to where they are most effective for road safety rather than the government coffers.

However, unlike you, I don't believe in the enforcement model. I believe that there should be training and have simple rules that make sense, with things like speed limits set properly and sensibly. When an interstate flows at 78 mph and the speed limit is 55mph, it encourages people to use any lane they want any time they want at 63mph. If the speed limit reflected the actual travel speeds, the lane discipline problem would be greatly reduced immediately.

Also driver training in the USA is practically non-existant. People just sort of decide on their own personal set of rules. This includes cops.

That is not accurate according to the Management and Enforcement agencies of the Autobahn. There are cameras for monitoring traffic, and enforcement uses a wide range of specialized, marked and unmarked, car and motorcycle patrols, as well as roadside monitoring. They go after violators of a wide range of traffic laws, including, lighting,signaling, speed, adverse conditions operation, lane changing at speed, proper lane maintenance, etc etc etc. I get the impression you have not personally driven the Autobahn, nor studied the management of it's use. If what you say is contrary to what the management and enforcement operations of the Autobahn, and the German government say, how can anything you say be taken seriously?

Law enforcement is there to enforce the law... and that includes traffic laws. Police officers don't make the laws. You put down the enforcement model, as if the cops make the rules. Talk to the politicians. There are a lot of changes we would like to see, but we have to live with what the system hands us. You act as if our sole motivation is revenue. It's clear you don't personally know many, if any at all, police officers. You clearly have no idea what they are about, or what they have to contend with from people who seem to think they are above the law because they know better than the enforcement officer, and everyone else.

I do agree that driver training can be different in scope from one area to another. You see that elsewhere in the world. For example, in Belgium you were required to have a driver's license if you bought a new car, but if you bought a used car it was not required. In some countries, a license is unheard of for the masses. I know what my son went through to get his license. The number of months of restricted driving (things like not permitted to have other teens in the car is the law for new young drivers), etc. I'm getting the feeling you have selected a single region where you have experienced your peeves, and applied that to the entire country. People are different from one zone to another. Just as rural people are less apt to lock their homes than people living in major metro areas. I've lived in MA, NY, ME, IN, FL, MN, CA, WA, AK, rural and metro areas, and traveled through most of the rest of the country. My experience is fairly extensive.

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1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8" w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16

You have an actual cite? Because this image of rigid enforcement you are trying to convey is contrary to everything I've read, seen, and experienced. Yes, there is enforcement, but it is not the way you are making it out to be. There is no constant monitoring of everyone, everywhere for violations as you are making it out to be. It simply is not like that.

There is some enforcement presence, but nothing like you claim. Sparse would be a good word to describe it. Rural autobahn has effectively nobody out there enforcing lane discipline, much like rural Indiana. However, on the rural autobahn, there is lane discipline, while in rural Indiana interstate it's practically nonexistant.

Effectively what you are doing is taking the existance of a few red light cameras and acting as if the entire US road system is so monitored.

Also, I didn't write that only tailgating was enforced, but that tailgating was the big problem. There are/have been tailgating traps set up on overpasses to measure the distances between vehicles. Much like the effort put in with speed traps in the USA.

Patrol cars are few and far between as well.

So, you show me this constant, ever present enforcement you claim exists. I simply didn't see it, and you are the first person I've encountered to claim it's there.

Then enforce Keep Right except to pass. Enforce signaling, enforce a whole host of laws on books in this country. But are they enforced? No.

Here in IL, elected officals strengthen the lane discipline portion of the vehicle code. In a year's time, the ISP writes a whole 50 some tickets. It's trivial. On I90/94 it one could spend their entire shift writing tickets for this and this alone.

They damn well choose what to enforce and on who.

No, I put it down because it's idiotcy. The same way you are claiming the autobahn is so tightly controled and how that's no good. (thankfully it's not controlled like that)

Yes, you're only following the orders of your masters.

As if there is no selective enforcement.

That's the motivation of your masters, the politicians, and since you just follow orders, and told me to take it up with them, then it is your motivation too.

Oh, you mean like the ISP who ticket people for going faster than 55mph but drive 85-90mph themselves? Or the local cops that rutinely speed and don't use singals and make all sorts of violations? Or the cops who don't know the vehicle code and demanded that I remove my vehicle (a bicycle) from the roadway? Or my favorite, the two cops, one tailgating the other driving 80mph or so on IL53, and when the lead cruiser used the brakes, the following cruiser nearly rear ended the lead one.

What part of the US of A has a decent driver training program? Name one. Just name one state that has something closer to say the UK's requirements than usual around-the-block type testing of the USA.

Oh, btw, the hoops teenagers in the USA are made to go through in the USA only make for equally untrained older teenagers driving. It's not about teaching them to drive, but just restricting their driving to limit the damage they can do. (Identical mentality to having underposted speed limits, let every idiot drive, but try to restrict the damage that will occur when they hit something) Having only one passenger so they can't kill 3 of their friends in a wreck under the concept that they cannot handle distractions from said friends. Maybe it's because this is a culture of multi-tasking drivers. Where driving isn't considered important, but something you can do in addition to yacking on the phone, reading, shaving, applying make up, etc... Just ease them into being like most of the rest of the population.

I'd like to see a state that starts requiring skid control classes in HS driver's ed instead of having cops hassle the few that find an empty parking lot to teach themselves.

I am not saying observed behavior doesn't vary. It vary well does because driving education in this country is essentially one generation teaching the next. You can check in google groups to see where I have argued before that it DOES vary from place to place. I found that lane discipline in WV is orders of magnitude better than in IL, for instance. So much for your newest manufactured angle. However, required driver training in the USA is low in every state as far as I know.

I think one law enforcement exchange program experience would open your eyes to a presence you fail to observe. Perhaps as you are traveling at 100+ the natural tunnel vision which develops blinds you to the obvious. Then read the annual reports from the people who manage the Autobahn. Read the engineering reports regarding the construction and maintenance of the Autobahn, and you will see that there is no other system, as old or new, which compares to what has gone into creating, maintaining, and improving the system, anywhere in the world, although some of the newer Japanese route are approaching first rate. You cite the Autobahn and how much more the drivers comply compared to the US. The Autobahn, extensive as it is, is a very small piece of the European roadway system. The portion you don't mention is nowhere near as complying. I would suggest that you get over there and do a much wider range of travel, and then question why the Autobahn has more compliance. It is not simply because the drivers are more polite.

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1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8" w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16

lmfao what makes u think i would want to ride in your car??

are u gay ??

hurc ast

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1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8" w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16

"Ralph Snart" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

Check this out:

The Road Rage Law is coming to Florida.

Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC