When 500HP Isn't Enough. Enter GT500 "R"

Any new Camaro from Chevy has one big constraint that Ford doesn't have to worry about - the Corvette. Chevy can't put a Camaro in the same performance league as the Vette. IMO, Ford will win the raw horsepower and performance war, if they choose to. Personally, I think Chevy is going to have a difficult time reintroducing the Camaro. It can only have a certain level of performance and it will have been out of the market for a long time (7-8 years) by the time it hits the showroom floor. Plus it doesn't have near the following of the Mustang which is really what keeps the Mustang alive.

I think it will go the way of the GTO unless they make a V-6 version that sells very well. Chevy has a tendency to sacrifice functionality for performance which doesn't increase overall sales volumes. It is the functionality of the V-6 Mustang that makes the V-8 versions viable. Maybe GM has learned something since killing the Camaro but I haven't seen much evidence of this in their current product line.

I'd like to see lower weights through more advanced body materials.

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in news:U6CdndfB3cNQXgfZnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

horsepower

Bingo. Right on the money as usual, Michael.

Camaro = Corvette * .85 (give or take)

Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC

I would like to see carbon fiber parts such as hood, trunk, maybe fenders and an aluminum block especially with the anniversary of the King of the Road coming up. The car is pretty well balanced so keep in mind what you shave from one area should be shaved in another too. So make a runflat system like the Vette and remove the spare tire to offset some of the loss in the front.

Nick

IN CARROL SHELBY WE ALL SHOULD TRUST!! :) GOD I HATE CAMAROS!!!

Cool, yeah, but that composite stuff is expensive.

should be > shaved in another too.

The GT500 is very nose heavy. The supercharged iron block 5.4 added a ton of weight up front and threw the front/rear balance off quite a bit from the regular GT.

It currently has no spare; only a can of Run Flat.

Patrick

Keep in mind the Vette only weighs 3,000-3,100. The Camaro is expected to weigh 3,500-3,600. Drop the 505 LS7 into it and its performance probably won't best the base Vette, which by then will likely be putting out 400+HP anyways.

Not with the 5.4. Add forced induction or an extra valve to two to the LS2/7 and the 5.4 will get run over. And probably part of the reason the Hurricane project is back on.

Camaro. It

Chevy will only let a Mustang hang with its fiberglass-wonder for so long before they up the ante. Case in point: Terminator and C5. With the intro of the C6, Chevy one-upped its ponycar rival. The base Vette is likely to move to 400+HP soon. And they have room to, since the Z06 is putting out 505.

time it hits the

Good point. But you got to wonder how many Chevy loyalist are waiting for a new Camaro. Plus, if it's a good car -- well built, and priced right -- it'll sell.

That's in the works as well as a 'vert version.

increase > overall sales volumes. It is the functionality of the V-6 Mustang that makes the V-8

I agree.

Solstice

Patrick

I didn't mention it, but I can also see an AWD drive version showing up in a ponycar, or at least in the Vette, soon. It makes sense because once you make more than 500HP, the additional power is just lost in a blaze of tire smoke.

Patrick

There are three ways to make horsepower with a mass produced engine (ignoring nitrous for obvious reasons). One is to use displacement. The second is to go for efficiency and make the engine complicated and expensive. The third is forced induction. Ford has gone the third way and it is the best IMHO. It has allowed them to produce a 500+ hp monster for little cost. Heck, for virtually no more R&D money they can crank up the horsepower to 700+ if GM wants to get real nasty.

GM, if history repeats itself, will use a combination of the first two and it will make the car too expensive, the profit margins will be too thin and/or they will cheapen up the rest of the car to make the bean counters happy. I'm not putting GM down but they need to make a Camaro that is affordable and utilitarian and worry less about beating the Mustang's performance numbers. It would help if they offered an engine that can be easily modded to produce huge hp/tq numbers like a Mustang via relatively inexpensive after market parts. Chevy leaves little potential to cheaply increase hp in their high performance engines like Ford does. That comes from pushing a N/A engine to its hp limits (i.e. high CR etc).

All this is academic because the Camaro won't be allowed to get close to a Vette's performance (i.e. 0-60, 1/4 mile, hp, handling etc.) or the marketing people for the Vette will squeal like pigs.

GM seems to steer away from forced induction. Remember, it is a $3k-$4k mod with an 03-04 Cobra to see 600+ rwhp/rwtq that drives like a bone stock engine. That tells me the 5.4L can pump out 700+ rwhp/rwtq without breaking a sweat and be very steetable. IMHO, Ford doesn't have to worry about GM adding a valve or two. They have already done that with the 5.4L AND added a blower for good measure. For another $1,000 on the MSRP of the GT500 they can add a twin screw blower and market it as a 600+ hp monster. That is the beauty of forced induction.

Camaro. It

I'm sure they will. They already have IMO with the new Z06. Trouble is they can't produce a super performance Camaro because the base model Vette will always be in its way.

time it hits the

Every year that passes there are fewer and fewer of the die hards left. Plus there is a whole generation of younger gear heads that have little or no reference points for the Camaro name. I think they would be better off introducing a whole new muscle car. Start with a clean slate and make the car everything it should be and not just the latest Camaro.

increase > overall sales volumes. It is the functionality of the V-6 Mustang that makes the V-8

It is a nice car but it isn't going to pull GM from the edge of the abyss. It is a Miata on a 1/4 dose of steroids. Pontiac can't make its balls too big or those damn Vette people will start whining again. ;)

I don't really like the look of the Solstice. If I was going to go with that platform, I'd probably choose the Saturn Sky Redline which will have the 2L turbocharged ecotec engine and put out 260hp/260ft/lbs. It's certainly not a corvette killer, but a fun little roadster. With a little software goose, I can imagine that engine doing 300-350hp in a car that weighs a bit under 3000lbs.

Cheers,

You are reinforcing the reason I like forced induction. Up the boost and sharpen up the tune and you'll see 300 rwhp before you know it. It is the cheapest way to make decent horsepower gains with the exception of nitrous.

The Mustang has no spare???

The Mustang stepped away from SVO and Probe (as Mustang replacement) for similar reasons as well as the IRS in recent Cobra's to keep complex high tech away, costs, and weight down. Mustang buyers are no frills type of people. They like to tune the car themselves for individuality. IMO this is a great way for Mercury to step up with a more expensive Mustang variant perhaps and introduce a Rally Sport Cougar (or Capri) with AWD. Might be nice to see the cat back with extra cat like handling. To be honest they should have kept the Probe for an AWD alternative so they can use the technology from the Five Hundred versus trying to make one capable of over

500hp. A Porsche or Lamborghini is so expensive they can get away with an AWD set up, a Corvette cant demand that on a production level and make a profit. I foresee the Vette becoming a better quality supercar and mid engine before an AWD platform comes into existence. Heck they just had a recall of 30,000 Corvettes for the roofs popping off during acceleration.

The GT500 doesn't because it has different sized tires if not wheels as well in front vs. the back.

I assume a battery relocation kit to the trunk will turn up in short order if it doesn't already exist.

Given GM's track record of destroying it's model names with lame, boring FWD cars I wouldn't be surprise if a new camaro isn't FWD ;)

I say that jokingly, but seriously, the closest GM has come to giving any of their nameplates justice with a new model in recent years has been the GTO. And they bungled that because they delivered a 1964 style GTO that looked almost entirely like the average sedan it was based upon when the market was looking for something considerably more flashy like the later 'judge'.

The odds are in favor of GM bungling a new camaro as well.

That is actually far too sensible for ford to do. They could please those who wanted the IRS etc with a mercury cougar on the same platform. It would act to define a significant difference between them so they wouldn't eat each other's market share to a significant degree. And if ford did it, they would bugger it up some how like... AT only or something.

Lets not forget the hotrod Lincoln!!! I would love to see a Mark series coupe much like Cadilac did with the Vette Ford should do with the Mustang or go nuts on shortening the LS platform or lengthening the T-Bird and make a vert.

Oh yeah, I'm a big fan of forced induction. With only minor tuning I've got my portly 2.7T A6 doing mid-13's on street tires and I still get

26mpg on the highway. :) If I felt like changing the turbos it would be in the 12-12.2 range and still drive like a fat German highway cruiser. I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Cheers,