Re: Asian brands dominate reliability list; Ford Motor is best domestic

Maybe you should ask yourself why Canadian plants produce so much better built products than American plants.

At a really slow pace.

Domestic hater? Then why did they gush over the new Chevy Malibu and Ford Fusion or once run the cover headline "Ford Beats Toyota"?

That's not a credible explanation, considering that only a few decades ago they couldn't sell cars in the US except by pricing them lower than domestics.

So why is Toyota having so much trouble selling big trucks? Probably because of quality problems/disasters like that and the fact that GM and Ford trucks are real good.

I liked the first Tundra, that point to brakes axles, towing and load capacity. What they were really saying we at Toyota are finally making the Tundra rougher, something like Ford, GM, and Dodge have been doing for many years.

Obviously you missed my point completely. I have never owned a Toyota in my life. I repeat, the problem, and it goes back to 1973, is that US Auto Makers failed to take action that would have ensured US dominance of the global automobile market for decades into the future. That is called shortsightedness. Just as the Big 3 are unable to deal effectively with the recession now in full swing because their planning in the years prior was shortsighted. The execs at these companies care only about their own mega bonuses and perks, and rely soleley on buyers like you who worship US auto makers rather than really care enough about them and their future to criticize them. GM has you brainwashed, and you don't even know it.

Japan, the second largest economy after us, is in a recession. People are losing jobs over there. All the Jap auto makers are posting losses along with the rest of their major industries. Alot of workers in Japan are complaining that their jobs have been sent to cheaper places like China and Southeast Asia. What? You thought WE were the only ones sending jobs overseas?? But McDonalds, a US company whose chains are found all over Japan is doing great! Why don't you try reading the "World" section of any Business News source for a change before you repeat this now totally irrelevant 1980s garbage?

So far you haven't been able to prove this allegation. Until you can I consider it simply your mantra to to bash Toyota. Free country do what you want, but you're bashing alot of US auto workers and their families along with it.

Have you any idea how out of touch with reality you are? WE LOST OUR MANUFACTURING ADVANTAGE IN THE LATE 1970S. Actions that could have been taken thenm, never were dur to a lack of leadership and foresight. Complaining about it now is like complaining that we are losing our horse and buggy industry due to a lack of support from loyal American customers. As to my comment about your PC why are you supporting FOREIGN PC makers??? Do you think Intel makes processors in the US?

And if I lived in Japan, I would be doing what I could to help.

LOL What a joke. UNlike a Toyota nutjob, I can fully admit when GM screws up, and they have quite a few times. I can and will give you an honest answer when you ask me if GM's X model car is garbage or not. I don't worship GM, I only need GM, and so does the rest of North America. People like you are too brainwashed to realize that, but it is the truth. You think the economy is bad now? Think of what would happen if GM went under.

Here's a good article for you to read from the Detroit Free Press auto critic, "6 Myths of the Detroit 3":

Fine. And as I live in the U.S. I am doing what I think helps....to offer real constructive criticism of the way in which our Auto Industry has failed to act with foresight, to learn from it's past mistakes, to demand leadership that actually cares for the future of the companies, the American auto industry and the manufacturing base of our country. The more we realize this the more likely that we will move towards achieving it. Blaming the "Japs" for making a more marketable product and calling the American car buyer "brainwashed", or chanting a fabrication that the profits of US factories of Japanese auto makers all "go back to Japan", or arguing that Americans should buy cars for "patriotic" reasons doesn't do squat to solve the real problem.

Your statement that " I only need GM, and so does the rest of North America" is proof that "I don't worship GM" is an outright lie. It appears that you worship GM as "God" and Toyota as "Satan". The world is far far more complex than such simple dichotomies. Clearly it is you with your simplified extremist view of the auto industry who is "brainwashed". Or admittedly, simply ignorant of word economics. Or everything that has happened over the last 30 years. So let's hear it, what exactly would happen if GM went under? Beyond the immediate effects like auto workers, executives, some dealers, contract suppliers losing jobs. I don't know if GM will actually go under or not, but I do know that you can't build a clean new house unless you tear down the old one. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the US auto industry has the capability to be the global leader in terms of accumulated experience, knowledge and skill. What it needs are a new kind of leadership that's dedicated to the future of the industry and country rather than their own personal bank accounts. I suppose YOU would rather bail these execs out right?

That is one of my points though. Most recent studies clearly state that GM products are as good as, or better then the Japanese products, yet the Japanese is more expensive, and they have a much smaller work force in North America. The reason I use the term "brainwashed" is most Toyota fans (not all, but most) I have seen on this newsgroup have stated that Japan build complete God like vehicles, while GM builds total trash. When you bring up a silly point like, oh I don't know, the severity of the recalls Toyota constantly issues, they don't care. They say that when they take there vehicle in to get the front end replaced (you know, so they don't get killed), they will be "treated kindly, and offered coffee". Give me a break. I will 100 percent admit that Toyota has done a much better job at making people believe there products are superior.

So, are you trying to tell me none of the profits from Japanese auto's goes back to Japan? It all stays over here?

Not true at all. When say "I need GM", I mean it. I live only a few miles from a GM car/truck plant, which happens to keep my entire region going. Most of my family is working, or retired from GM, the rest have jobs that are directly, or partly supported by GM. Like I have already said, I will fully admit that GM has screwed up in the past. I will also admit that I think Toyota builds some of the world's most bland, boring cars, but none of that is the point. I know what GM does for me, and the rest of North America. What would happen to the 3 million directly or partly supported workers that would be out of a job if the Domestics went under? Also, tell me what would happen should WWIII, or something similar break out? Are those nice Toyota plants going to make the equipment we need?

Well, let's see. We would loose around 3 million jobs, and $140 billion dollars. Is that not enough?

Hold on a second, there. I have absolutely no interest in helping any of GM's current executive's. I mentioned in another thread that if I were in control of the bailout money, that would be a very strict condition. If GM get's the money, the head honchos are fired, and replaced. If they can't be fired, they there salaries must be dropped significantly, as must all "exec spending", until GM is back on it's feet, and the loans repaid.

"80Knight" wrote in message news:BOmdnVonQvFalL7UnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com...

If many American consumers are "brainwashed" as you say, it didn't just happen over the last few years. It happened starting in 1973 when OPEC nailed us between the legs and we as a nation, government, people and our OWN AUTO MAKERS didn't have the foresight to change our entire attitude towards oil and automobiles. That left the Japanese auto makers a free hand at capturing the GLOBAL market for smaller fuel efficient cars, while we couldn't shake our big car attitude. The upshot is that they made gobs of money to throw back into R&D to improve their products so that decades later when Toyota and Nissan throw the Lexus and Infini at us, they aren't even compact fuel efficient car makers anymore. Yes face it, we went through a time when their propducts actually were superior and that's an impression that many American consumers aren't going to toss just because someone screams "You're Brainwashed!!" at them.

I've asked you several times now to support your claim amnd so far you;ve been unable to do so. None? Maybe. What I do know is that they pay Federal Taxes, State Taxes, the wages and benefits of all the American workers that support their families, and as they are fully US corporations even being a subsidiary of the head Japanese Corporation, whether they would benefit by actually "sending" any profits to Japan is questionable. Now assuming you were somehow correct, and all these dollars were being sent to Japan, what exactly do you think they do with those dollars? Stuff it into a mattress? They're US Dollars. They do what every other foreign entitiy that has dollars does. What do you think the OPEC Arab countries do with all the Dollars they squeeze out of us for their oil? They buy US securities, government bonds, T-Bills, CP, you name it. It comes back to feed the US economy. Right now the biggest holders of US government securities are China (who incidentally is a communist dictatorship whose military trains witrh the United States as the designated enemy) followed by Japan (which happens to be the home port of the U.S. 7th Fleet). That's right Asia has been financing our big Iraq fiasco all thse years. But in return many Americans either individually or through mutual funds and such own shares in Toyota or Nissan or whatever. Hell the French own a big chunk of Nissan. GM owned Suzuki. You've been repeating this mantra that the Japanese Auto factories in the US don't benefit the US at all as if time stopped for you in 1980 and you never caught up with how the world economies have become intertwined over the last 30 years.

Who knows? Do profits that American manufacturers make in Brasil or Europe, or Mexico stay in those market areas?

There is always some repatriation of capital. If you make any money, that is.

I have lived in countries where it was essentially impossible to repatriate profits directly, but there was always a path to do so.. Exporting essential parts to that country was one way to do it. There were others

Profits are not a sin.

Out of fair curiosity, what exactly is your relationship with GM, Knight?

I live a few minutes from one of the car/truck plants. Most of my family works for GM itself (or are retired from GM), while the rest work for companies who only exist because of GM. I, personally used to work for a non-union electronics store. One day, several of us were moving very large equipment, and there was an accident. A few broken bones, bumps, and I ended up with serious spinal damage. After being operated on by one of the top neurosurgeons in the country, I have still not totally recovered, nor am I going to. What does this have to do with GM? Well, when I had to go to the Workplace Safety board to get paid after the accident, they wanted to play hard-to-get. I was in no condition to fight with them, so I decided to go down to the local Union office and ask them, as they deal with the WSB all the time. After explaining what had happened, they took all of my paper work, and told me they would be more then happy to help out. A week later, I had a check in my hand, and an apology letter from WSB.

What indeed?

They would not go out of business, at least at this point in time. They would probably declare bankruptcy, reorganize, and try to revitalize the company under creditory protection of the bankruptcy laws.

Their stocks would become a little less valuable than they are at the moment. (Yes, that was a facetious statement!).

They would be able to break union contracts, fire whomever they felt they had to fire, etc.

Their business would be severly damaged, as few people would want to buy a car from a company in bankruptcy.

It can be like personal bankruptcy. You can get a chance to change your habits, keep some assets, and keep creditors off your back until you can get back on your feet...IF you can get back on your feet.

They have used up all their credit and their assets, have cars that people are not clamoring to buy, and are in the midst of one of the worst economic shocks in modern history. But it is not necessarily a death blow.

Mary Steenburgen, on Fox this morning, spoke of a delegation of stars (Tom Hanks, et al) who went to the automakers to try to convince them to reconsider their path.

She said that her group loved to drive fine foreign cars but wanted to buy American, and that they tried to convince the manufacturers to make something they could buy in good conscience.

They met a deafening silence. No interest whatsoever.

Clients of the Big Three, for some years, have met silence, or worse yet arrogance, when they tried to get settlement on serious problems with US cars.

The management bonuses and perqs also made for bad relations.

There is so much anger and hatred of the way the automakers have responded to market and customer needs, that it is going to be difficult for elected officials not to take this into consideration.

While many feel sorrow for the workers, a lot dont feel any empathy for the corporation.