Re: It Takes More Energy To Produce A Prius Then A Hummer

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>>> >>> >>>>> 80 Knight wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage >>>>>> By Chris Demorro >>>>>> Staff Writer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society >>>>>> so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium >>>>>> to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their >>>>>> ultimate green car is the source of some of the worst pollution in >>>>>> North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce >>>>>> than a Hummer. >>>>>> Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first >>>>>> understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular >>>>>> hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 >>>>>> horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a >>>>>> battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping >>>>>> 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, >>>>>> the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car >>>>>> from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of >>>>>> gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more >>>>>> energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is >>>>>> recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline >>>>>> engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great >>>>>> energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right? >>>>>> >>>>>> You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, >>>>>> which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city >>>>>> and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the >>>>>> government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which >>>>>> consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only >>>>>> 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a >>>>>> much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and >>>>>> acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius EPA down >>>>>> by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within >>>>>> spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then >>>>>> half what the Prius costs. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn't be >>>>>> writing this article. It gets much worse. >>>>>> >>>>>> Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a >>>>>> Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As >>>>>> already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains >>>>>> nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, >>>>>> Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the >>>>>> surrounding environment that NASA has used the "dead zone" around the >>>>>> plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any >>>>>> life for miles. >>>>>> >>>>>> The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius battery >>>>>> and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the >>>>>> plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, >>>>>> becoming every environmentalists nightmare. >>>>>> >>>>>> The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants >>>>>> and the soil slid down off the hillside, said Canadian Greenpeace >>>>>> energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a >>>>>> British-based newspaper. >>>>>> >>>>>> All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the >>>>>> journey to make a hybrid doesn't end there. The nickel produced by >>>>>> this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the >>>>>> largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over >>>>>> to China to produce nickel foam. From there, it goes to Japan. >>>>>> Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, >>>>>> finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single >>>>>> Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like >>>>>> environmentally sound cars and more like a farce? >>>>>> >>>>>> Wait, I haven't even got to the best part yet. >>>>>> >>>>>> When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and >>>>>> build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes >>>>>> almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius' arch >>>>>> nemesis. >>>>>> >>>>>> Through a study by CNW Marketing called "Dust to Dust", the total >>>>>> combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, >>>>>> transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other >>>>>> factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an >>>>>> average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - >>>>>> the expected lifespan of the Hybrid. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to >>>>>> put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That >>>>>> means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use >>>>>> less combined energy doing it. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, >>>>>> buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion. The >>>>>> Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you >>>>>> are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that >>>>>> lead foot. >>>>>> >>>>>> One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium >>>>>> price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any >>>>>> money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Notwithstanding the other claims, has the first Hummer reached 100,000 >>>>> miles? Let alone the notional 300,000 mile lifetime. >> >> As a multi-H1 Hummer owner, I can assure you that many H1s are over >> 100K, and I know of a number that are much, much higher. They (the H1) >> will go 300K without any trouble at all (normal maintenance)however I >> won't/can't speak for the H2/H3s. >>>> I could tell you that I have seen Hummer's with well over 300,000 >>>> miles, but without actual DMV proof, the question can't really be >>>> answered. >>> I can show you Suburbans with 300,000 miles on them. >>> >>> But it's an exception. Lots of Japanese cars reach 300,000 easily. >>> >>> Keep slugging away, though. You might convince someone other than >>> yourself. >>> >>> >> >> Most vehicles will go 300K with good maint. The Prius has a *design >> life* of 100K miles. > > To be fair, I think most cars do. Most original owners don't keep a car > for 100K miles. The only road vehicles I know of that really seem to be > designed for the long haul are heavy trucks and German cars. > > nate

When do you think this 100K design trend began? I'm just curious.

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom
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When they decided that 50K design lives were too short.

Reply to
me

I was told expected battery life was the limiting factor.

Reply to
PeterD

I was referring more to the general statement about other cars not being expected to last very long.

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

Estimated at 119K miles AFAIR. Truly remarkable when you consider how far batteries have come. Not that you'll find me buying a Prius.

Reply to
me

Electrical cars can last a very long time. A lot less moveable parts. Changing batteries and tires is just a natural replacement. This will gradually change the world.

Reply to
Gosi

Actually, yup. The lifetime of the battery is about 120,000 miles. Then you take it to the dealer and have another one installed.

Reply to
Hachiroku

We're talking about hybrids, not electric cars. Hybrids have a much more complicated power train than either convention internal combustion powered or straight electric cars. More moving parts and more complicated interfacing between the electrical and IC power trains.

Jack j

Reply to
Retired VIP

"Retired VIP"...

Actually it is not all that complicated at all. The "transmission" is much simpler and they stuck an electric motor in it.

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Reply to
Tomes

"PeterD" ...

That's what they want you to believe to make their case. There are plenty of taxi Prii in use with well over 200K miles. Tomes

Reply to
Tomes

Only if it actually needs it. Time will tell.... Tomes

Reply to
Tomes

That's the word from Toyota. Remember, I used to work for a dealer. Of course, we're talking an imperfect technology here. The batteries may actually wear out prior to 120,000 miles, depending upon use.

Unfortunately, I don't know if they are warranteed to last 120,000 miles.

Reply to
Hachiroku

Yet, I haven't read anything that indicates that the batteries are not good for a longer lifespan. Toyota and Honda were really conservative with the batteries when they first came out. For example, they kept the charge within a really narrow window, something like between 60 and 80% charge, until they had real-life experience to guide future battery usage.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Yeah, I remember hearing this. Also, it helps the batteries to last longer, IIRC.

Reply to
Hachiroku

"Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Hybrid-related components for hybrid vehicles are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Owner?s Warranty Information booklet for details."

Reply to
me

I wasn't inferring that. Just posting the warranty info as there was some discussion of the exact warranty on the batteries.

Reply to
me

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