my opinion of this is that it is a scam.
my reasoning is that, from what i have seen (and if the concept is based upon electrolysis), the significant energy required for disassociation of water into hydrogen (and oxygen) must come from the battery/ alternator (which takes fuel to produce). AND the first law of thermodynamics.
am i right or wrong???
on 5/17/2008 8:17 PM nucleus said the following:
What we need is a perpetual motion machine. I think Billy Mays advertises one on TV for $19.95, but if you call now, he'll double it to 2 machines for $19.95. :-)
I've just spent some time searching for any documentation that verifies or debunks Brown's Gas for autos. I found some discussion about patent disputes and opinions disparaging it's use in welding. So far though I've found no one with verifiable data regarding the effectiveness of its use in autos. That in itself seems to put it in the scam end of the spectrum. hth
Browns gas is result of electrolysis of water H20 > HH0. Energy available in browns gas is less than energy input to electrolysis.
Energy at crank from combustion of browns gas (or any fuel/oxidant mix) is about 25% of available energy. The other 75% goes down the exhaust pipe as noise and into the cooling system as heat.
Conversion of crank energy to electricity in alternator is about
90-95% efficient.Overall less than 22% efficient and actually less efficient than the use of regular gasoline. So you have to burn MORE fuel to keep the process going. Any initial gain seen or claimed is from discharging battery - better have some jump leads ready. Electricity to re-charge battery costs more than fuel.
Browns gas for welding is fine but expensive to have safe kit. A "desktop" generator for micro flame used for glasswork and thermocouples costs close to £4000 (UKP) and larger units cost around £12,000 (UKP). Temperature is high (it can cut brick), flame is clean (can't ever soot) but lacks visibility. The advantages are you can't run out unless you have a power cut (good excuse to hit the beach at
3pm in California I understand) and don't have to store a bottle of acetylene so safer and reduced insurance.
Peter,
OK. However, isn't the idea of using Brown's gas for automobiles not to run on Brown's gas alone, but to supplement refined gasoline or diesel fuel by producing Brown's gas from the waste energy from the internal combustion process and excess alternator generation?
In that case, the net inefficiency of producing the Brown's gas would not matter. At least that is the sales logic in presentations by sellers of Brown's gas units for automobiles.
But, where are the hard numbers that document that it works from dispassionate users?
Your further comments are appreciated.
Cliff
WASTE energy? Only waste energy from internal combustion engine is noise and heat. Neither can be used to dissociate water into browns gas.
Only thing that can make browns gas is electricity. That can only be obtained from the alternator driven by the crank or by draining the battery. There is no "FREE" excess alternator generation, draw more power from the alternator, it draws more power from the crank. The additional load to drive the browns gas generator means more fuel has to be burnt to drive the alternator.
1000 watts of fuel power = 250 watts (~20A @ 12v) of crank power 237.5 watts of power for browns gas generator = 215 watts of browns gas. 1000w - 215w = 785 watts of fuel power expended to run a browns gas generator. That's over 1 bhp worth of fuel going nowhere near the road, or heater fan or screen heater or stereo. It's like running with an extra rear screen heater switched on all the time.
Thank you for this clarification. Personally, I consider the question of Brown's Gas for supplementing auto fuel resolved.
My thinking really points to the essential ingredient of any successful scam. The pitch "sounds" good because it draws upon certain "facts" that are true, but always leaves out some primary element in order to conjure a hopeful but unrealistic solution.
Thanks again, Peter
Cliff
Another aspect of these scams is that some people who buy their products want them to work so much that they drive very carefully and economically to get the most from their investment.
So their mileage improves just because of that driving-style change, and they turn around amd endorse the product as a result.
John
Tell a layman that it's the "first law of thermodynamics" and it means nothing, so they will still put their faith in a convincing charlatan.
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