40 mpg Prius vs 50 mpg European Diesel cars

A coupl points to be added to the above.

The life of the batteries I know they are specially made given a standard battery life is 3-4 years. The cost of replacement plus warranty period (this may be seperate). Are they ( battery) recyclable. Like all cars they will at some point will required repair /service and the cost of this service ????????

Yandoit Australia

• * * + "A poor excuse is like an old bucket; doesn't matter what shape it's in, as long as it holds water" * PK Shaw

As Maxwall Smart would say " The old consumer pays trick. " Yandoit Australia

• * * + "A poor excuse is like an old bucket; doesn't matter what shape it's in, as long as it holds water" * PK Shaw

Expected life of Prius battery exceeds 10 years.

The cost of replacement plus warranty period (this may be seperate).

Who knows? None have been replaced yet. I heard the price has dropped considerably.

Are they ( battery) recyclable.

Yes.

Like all cars, that depends on what needs to be serviced and where the service is performed.

=>

=>A lot of people used to be very sloppy and/or careless when they filled up =>and the next in line usually got some fuel on the bottom of their shoes, =>which meant tracking it inside the car. Gasoline without the scent added =>smells gross. =>I buy clear K-1 and though I'm very careful with it I do get some on my =>hands. It lingers like chlorine bleach. =>I don't care how clean diesel becomes in the future, the exhaust is =>typically very heavy and doesn't dissipate as easily as the fumes from =>burned gasoline. I don't know a single person who enjoys being behind a =>diesel, in slow traffic, on a hot summer day. =>

=>mark_

Smelly? Another urban myth?

Never smell anything behind UPS vans(MB/Dodge/Freight liner Sprinter Diesel Van) and they have been running in US for years now. Also, Sprinter van is the hottest commercial van on the market for years. For 28MPG, no other US vans can beat it.

Me too.

I hope to make it at least once; until about a decade ago, I was not emotionally ready to visit it, and since then I haven't had the opportunity to visit DC.

-- Michelle

more expensive) also fuel filters and maintenance

today's market, in the winter you need blended fuel or

additives that keep the fuel from gelling.I have

it is, it cost more!

Wow. When I left Houston in 1987 (to move north), gas was 67 cents/gal

Just wait until diesel cars start using bio fuel.

Yandoit Australia

Things only even go wrong at the last moment

J.D.Boatwood

No shit. That will drive the price of food up.

This is one of the most interesting threads I have seen anywhere recently - so much so I sorted by date and went through again. It is great to learn so much about day-to-day use of hybrids and about batteries and diesel technology.

One thing which is not clear is whether diesel is inherently more expensive to produce than petrol. I suppose the differential depends, in part, on the type of crude and, possibly, dealing with sulphur.

The free gift of hybrids is regenerative braking - the fossil fuels we will continue to waste until this is universal should make us weep.

The thread contains convincing evidence that there is no real barrier to diesel hybrids. My arithmetic suggests that a diesel-powered Prius would do around 35.

What remains unresolved, for me anyway, is whether there is (or needs to be) any significant difference in pollution between petrol/diesel.

I would rather see bio fuel used to heat homes instead of using it for vehicles. Alternatives such as wood, coal, pellets and corn are a pain in the ass unless one never leaves his home for any extended period of time. mark_

There is not really a technical barrier to making a dieseel hybrid function. However, as I mentioned before, there is a cost barrier that consumers may not be willing to pay because there is a premium price for a diesel and a premium price for a hybrid system, so the price of a diesel hybrid could be so high that nobody would purchase it.

The other potential barrier to diesel hybrid sales is that Toyota markets hybrids as a "greener" alternative to conventionally powered vehicles, and many people, especially in the U.S., perceive diesel as a dirtier engine so the number of prospective buyers might be to small to justify development and production costs.

It wasn't always so. Time was that Mercedes charged a premium for the gas engines. If I remember correctly (always a chancy thing), the -D was, for some years, the bargain basement Mercedes and a gasoline engine was $3K upgrade (might have brought along more features).

I can't think of any particular reason why a diesel should be significantly more expensive than a gas engine - at least not any intrinsic reason. Doesn't it have a similar part-count and similar fabrication methods? Those two items should pretty much determine the cost to produce, shouldn't they? Fixed costs divided by unit production make a difference. If the diesels are low-volume production, the fixed-cost per unit would be higher but I doubt this would justify a huge price difference in the motors. Other supply chain overhead might also drive up the cost of the lower-volume engine a bit.

*** Posted via a free Usenet account from ***

I think that the lower volume of diesel engines for many automotive applications is what drives up the cost, plus the additional battery capacity. The mechanical fuel injectors used to be very expensive, modern electronic ones are probably in line with the cost of a gas engine.

Could be because the diesel engine is in fact dirtier than the gasoline models you mention? For example, you cannot buy a new VW TDI diesel in my state, because the emissions are so bad.

2006 VW Golf TDI, EPA air pollution score of 1, LEV. Not sold in CA or the New England states. 2006 VW New Beetle TDI, EPA air pollution score of 1, BIN9. Not sold in CA or the New England states. 2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid, EPA air pollution score of 8, BIN3, not sold in CA or the New England states, or for the CA emission version is an air pollution score of 9, SULEV II. 2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid, EPA air pollution score of 8, BIN3, not sold in CA or the New England states, or for the CA emission version is an air pollution score of 9.5, SULEV II. (fueleconomy.gov doesn't have the 2007 model years available yet, otherwise I would've included the available 2007 Toyota Camry hybrid. no score was listed for the VW Jetta TDI.)

(EPA air pollution scores are based on 1=worst, 10=best. For the Maximum allowed grams per mile Emission limits at full useful life (100,000-120,000 miles), see:

) To note the limits for the non-CA emission states (listed as maximum grams per mile):

NOx=Oxides of Nitrogen: Compounds containing nitrogen and oxygen; they combine with hydrocarbons in the sunlight to form smog

1 = 0.6 8 = 0.03

NMOG=Non-Methane Organic Compounds: Compounds containing carbon; they combine with NOx in the sunlight to form smog

1 = 0.280 8 = 0.055

CO=Carbon Monoxide: A colorless, odorless, poisonous gas

1 = 6.4 8 = 2.1

PM=Particulate Matter: Tiny particles of solid matter that lodge in the lungs and deposit on buildings

1 = 0.08 8 = 0.01

HCHO=Formaldehyde: A lung irritant and carcinogen

1 = 0.027 8 = 0.011

So yes, I would say that the diesels are dirtier (more than 2x for HCHO, 20x for NOx) than the Toyota hybrids, because they are.

Dodge Sprinter is selling in every states.

UPS/Fedex Spr =>

=>Could be because the diesel engine is in fact dirtier than the gasoline =>models you mention? For example, you cannot buy a new VW TDI diesel in =>my state, because the emissions are so bad. =>

=>2006 VW Golf TDI, EPA air pollution score of 1, LEV. Not sold in CA or =>the New England states. =>

=>2006 VW New Beetle TDI, EPA air pollution score of 1, BIN9. Not sold =>in CA or the New England states. =>

=>2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid, EPA air pollution score of 8, BIN3, not =>sold in CA or the New England states, or for the CA emission version is =>an air pollution score of 9, SULEV II. =>

=>2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid, EPA air pollution score of 8, BIN3, not =>sold in CA or the New England states, or for the CA emission version is =>an air pollution score of 9.5, SULEV II. =>

=>(fueleconomy.gov doesn't have the 2007 model years available yet, =>otherwise I would've included the available 2007 Toyota Camry hybrid. =>no score was listed for the VW Jetta TDI.) =>

=>(EPA air pollution scores are based on 1=worst, 10=best. For the =>Maximum allowed grams per mile Emission limits at full useful life =>(100,000-120,000 miles), see: =>

)=>

=>To note the limits for the non-CA emission states (listed as maximum =>grams per mile): =>

=>NOx=Oxides of Nitrogen: Compounds containing nitrogen and oxygen; they =>combine with hydrocarbons in the sunlight to form smog =>1 = 0.6 =>8 = 0.03 =>

=>NMOG=Non-Methane Organic Compounds: Compounds containing carbon; they =>combine with NOx in the sunlight to form smog =>1 = 0.280 =>8 = 0.055 =>

=>CO=Carbon Monoxide: A colorless, odorless, poisonous gas =>1 = 6.4 =>8 = 2.1 =>

=>PM=Particulate Matter: Tiny particles of solid matter that lodge in the =>lungs and deposit on buildings =>1 = 0.08 =>8 = 0.01 =>

=>HCHO=Formaldehyde: A lung irritant and carcinogen =>1 = 0.027 =>8 = 0.011 =>

=>

=>So yes, I would say that the diesels are dirtier (more than 2x for =>HCHO, 20x for NOx) than the Toyota hybrids, because they are.

"I can't think of any particular reason why a diesel should be significantly more expensive than a gas engine - at least not any intrinsic reason."

The high compression ratios are the main reason. Everything is hunkier and heavier built, from the pistons to the connecting rods and the crankshaft, bearings and crankcase, and the fuel metering system and injectors must also accommodate high pressures and temperatures and vibration. Bearings and rings tend to be more sophisticated in their design, requiring more machining and additional parts, and the lubrication system is more sophisticated, with even the old VW Rabbit having piston-cooling oil showers. More noise-deadening padding and baffling must be employed. And since the ignition is by compression rather than spark, the engines are less amenable to electronic control, reducing the beneficial impact of one of the biggest savings drivers in automotive design today. Emissions are more difficult to clean up, too. Despite what you've read on this thread, modern European automotive diesels are plenty stinky, though I admit they are improved.

I wonder what your neighbours would think of you burning old fish & chip oil.

I think you are wrong. Both diesel and petrol engines are built to the same tolerances and, though engine management for diesels is even more sophisticated than petrol, the impact on cost is negligible.

The only convincing reason I know of for diesel engines being more expensive is that a much smaller number of them are made. Thus the development costs must be recovered from a smaller throughput.

The things you mention might call for a few extra grams of steel - chickenfeed.

If a diesel system is produced in similar numbers to petrol you will find little difference in cost per engine.

And I have a theory that diesel engines last longer - because their fuel has some lubricating properties, unlike petrol.

Thus a mass-produced diesel might well yield a whole of life cost less than the petrol equivalent.

The Dodge Sprinter has a GVWR of 8550lbs.

Therefore, it is exempt from fuel economy testing (passenger vehicles over 8500 lbs are excluded) as it is considered a heavy truck, and probably doesn't have to meet emission requirements either. Same goes for other popular vehicles like the Ford F-250/350 series and Excursion, Hummer H1 and H2, Dodge Ram 2500/3500 series, Chevy Suburban

3/4 ton, etc. I'll also note that OSHA has various regulations on diesel exhaust, but I haven't seen the quite so many for gasoline (mainly just for auto repair shops or drive-through restaurants).