The P brands

My two favorite! And now that spring is around the corner I am going to treat myself to one of my favorite sports cars, but from only one of them (limited garage space). I would either like a 944 from Porsche or a Fiero from Pontiac. I have driven a 944 (1983) and it was much fun, but have not had a chance to drive a Fiero yet. I can imagine a mid engine Fiero would handle much better? I am looking for a quality car here as it will be a daily driver, so quality and dependability is an issue....but also performance and such could make or break the deal as well. Any ideas in helping me pick? I want to keep the price to +- $5,000 or less, try to stay mid 80s and will buy the best example for my money I can. What are the Pro's/Con's of these cars? Thanks for helping me pick my dream car!

Reply to
Lord Fletcher
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I don't want to be sarcastic in my response, so I am going to surmise that this is not a joke:

I bought a 1988 Fiero off of the showroom floor. It was a classic example of shoddy workmanship and disappointing performance. I wouldn't go near this car. It looks really good, but that is all.

I just bought my 1987 944 in September. It is not perfect, & has a ways to go, but I LOVE THIS CAR!!

There is no comparison (hence my wondering if this is for real), buy the

944.

Good luck.

JH

Reply to
Jerry Hennelly

Honestly, I would not want either one as a daily driver - but if you are willing to pay what it takes to keep them in good, everyday use kind of shape - drive them both and decide for yourself.

The Fiero had a lot of problems during it's production life time and it was not until the last year or two of manufacture that GM finally fixed these problems. If you want one - I think that the 1988 or 1989 models are the ones to look at.

The 944 were expensive cars when they were new, but time have not been kind to their resale values - so many of the examples were bought (used) cheap and were not maintained properly - prices are relatively high for parts and labor - so unless you can do the work yourself and find a real good one that has not been abused and have been properly maintained (hard to belive for the price you want to pay) - you might be in for a maintenance headache. Sports car market had a nice article about 944's as an affordable classic in the Oct. 2003 issue, but if you have access to the current issue - you might want to see what Peter Zimmerman said about them in the letters section.

For the amount of money you are going to spend, with reliability and dependability as a major issue - I would look at a Japanese brand sport car as a daily driver. A mid-80's or early 90's Toyota MR2 or an early 90's Mazda Miata would be great, economical, reliable and fun to drive daily drivers in this price range.

Just my $0.02

Ron.

Reply to
Ron Loewy

Ord> Honestly, I would not want either one as a daily driver - but if you are

This lad, Ron, has a problem with knowing what he is speaking of. There was no 1989 year Fiero production line although there was one scheduled and a model for it. Never went into production. The 1988 was it... finale... finito! 1984-1988 was all she wrote.

Actually they had pretty much taken care of the problems by the 1985 model year. And there are many 1984s still alive and on the road. The

1988 would be a choice year but it is also the hardest to get SOME parts for. Suspension parts and some brake parts mostly. The rest are pure GM new, NOS, or third party. There are clubs in most areas of US and in other countries as well. There are never ending discussion groups and websites dealing with about anything that comes down the pike.

Body-wise, the Fiero outer panels are five kinds of plastic and fend off minor collisions and dents with no effort. The massive internal metal frame has handled many severe accidents, occupants walking away without a scratch. Southern cars here, of course. Salt takes its toll on all cars in the north. We must remember that we are speaking of cars that have been on the road for 15-20 years.

Speaking as one who bought a new Fiero in 1987 and presently have 4 Fieros, they are very reliable and I drive mine every day. Keeping them on the road is not hard although you do have to find a mech who is not afraid to tackle them. I have found one. This would also be a problem with an European import also... perhaps more so.

It would be hard to compare a Fiero to a Porsche. To begin with, you would have to compare original prices at time of purchase. Since the most expensive 1988 Fiero GT with t-tops went for a little over $16K US, you almost have to laugh at a comparison with a new 1988 Porsche. But go ahead, pick a model and give it a go. Frankly, I'm not at all sure we are not comparing apples and oranges. The Fiero and the Porsche catered to two different markets.

Good choices also. It would not be MY choice to go with anything there but a Miata, of course. The problems with finding good mechs about in that arena too. And the Miata would not be my daily driver --- the Fiero next to it would be. But the Miata would be a nice weekend fun car, unless I can find the rare Fiero V-6 convertible. Then there would be no choice --- I would have everything I want in ONE car.

I think that Ron has given you some good advice, Lord, but he was decidely unfair to the Fiero. I hope I have shed a little light in the areas that he left dark.

Reply to
Mr Potatohead

One consideration that may be important is the cost of repair and maintenance. Considering that both of these marques are approaching two decades of age, parts availability and cost are going to be important. The last time I looked at Porsche parts (914) they were hard to find and very, very expensive, and not all that easy to find. Perhaps the 944 parts are different, but I'm willing to bet that the Pontiac parts are much cheaper and easier to find, even for the '88 Fiero of which only 26,000 were made.

As an example, typical rebuilt engine cost for a Fiero V6 is in the $800-1,200 plus labor to install, and if you rebuild it with your own labor the cost would be less. Almost all aspects of Fiero repair are physically easy to do, and there is an excellent community of support for the Fiero.

Used parts are also easy to come by, as the major mechanicals were shared with GM's X-platform of the era. You can walk into any wrecking yard and buy used parts such as axles, trannies, etc, for really cheap prices. How much for a set of Citation axles? Both for $20 in excellent condition, and they can be installed in 30 minutes if you know what you're doing. Brake rotors? I get them for $5 each, spend another $5 for a light turning and they're good as new. It goes on and on.

The Porsche is a much more refined car, better engineered in many respects, but it's going to be much harder to find parts, and much more costly to purchase same. The Porsche has that mystique that the Pontiac doesn't. To me that's not enough to buy one, though if I found a decent deal on a 914-6 I'd jump on it in a heart beat. :)

FWIW...

JazzMan

Reply to
JazzMan

Thanks for the correction. I always remembered them as 1985 to 1989, I guess that I was one year off on each end.

Thanks for the correction. I honestly remembered it differently. Since you own some, and I only flirted with the idea in the past - you obviously know more about it.

I am sorry about the unfair information - it was done based on my (somewhat foggy) memory from research I have done several years ago. Thanks for the corrections.

Ron.

Reply to
Ron Loewy

I read both of those articles with interest, and the Zimmerman letter has been posted to the Pelican 944 BBS if anyone wants to check it out. Zimmerman's right that the 944 requires more maintenance than a

911, but he's totally wrong that the car can't be maintained by anyone but a certified Porsche mechanic (mechanics always say that, no matter the marque). In terms of price/performance I think the 944 is still a good deal. A new timing belt every 30k miles, even at $800 a pop from a mechanic, doesn't strike me as onerous - it's less than $300/year, driving it 10k a year. The rest of the maintenance is standard automotive stuff that can be done by a home mechanic, and is cheaper than my 911 (and the inline 4 is easier to work on). You also get better gas mileage, more payload capacity, better heat and a/c, and better (whisper it) handling. Hell, even the sunroof is bigger than the 911s coupe. The car is about 80% the performance of a 911 for about 20% of the cost. To me, that seems a decent deal, and the higher running costs don't tip the advantage back to the 911 (which is faster, has better residual value, and once sorted requires less maintenance). The issue of poorly-maintained examples is valid, but easily circumvented by buying from a Porsche enthusiast, like someone on Rennlist, Pelican BBS, here, or through the PCA. You'll pay about the same, and the car will have a more accurate and thorough history. Then again, I bought mine off of eBay for 2 grand, and it's fine. But if money's a big issue, the Fiero will undoubtedly be cheaper to run. However, the best alternative to the Porsche 944 is the Honda CRX Si, imo. Similar performance (handles not as good, a bit faster) and advantages (mileage, payload), cheaper to buy and run, more upgrade options. My two cents, Emanuel
Reply to
E Brown

Hi All,

I bought my 86 944 Turbo in October last year for a real bargain price, the car looked great and there was no real reason to suspect there might be anything wrong, it came with all the receipts and MOT's to verify the mileage (65500 Miles) however the car had not been serviced since Oct 2002 @ 55000 miles so it was really due to a good service. Speaking to various people I had heard that Specialist Cars in Malton North Yorkshire were a good company and because they are only an hour away from me I emailed them to ask about servicing costs, I got an email straight back from the Manager Glyn O'Donnell telling me what I needed to know and inviting me up to the premises for a guided tour. I took him up on the offer and was really impressed by the company they are really informal and friendly and don't seem to care if your car costs 5k or 100k so I booked my car in for a full 12k service including Transmission fluid change and a free 74 point check (all new customers get this) as you can imagine I was really nervous as I had not had a pre purchase inspection.

Anyway I got a call from Glyn telling me that my car was "A real good find" and that apart from some service items outstanding it was in very good condition indeed.

I authorised him to go ahead with the following work.

12K Service (Mobil one) Transmission fluid change (Fully synthetic) Strip front callipers and refurbish Replace front brake pads re skim front disks Re paint and reassemble callipers. (look tremendous now) Fit new alternator belt Fit new PAS Belt Change PAS fluid remove exhaust and replace blowing o rings. Replace handbrake shoes free off and lubricate "sticky" passenger window

I got a courtesy car and my car was cleaned inside and out before I picked it up. Needless to say I was expecting quite a large bill and was very pleasantly surprised to find it came to £735.00 inclusive of Tax, I know that it's not cheap but I now know that I have a tip top condition car serviced by a professional team who really seem to care about customer service and are passionate about the cars we all enjoy.

I just thought they deserved a plug and if you are anywhere near then I would heartily recommend you to go along and ask them about taking on your cars servicing. (worth the visit just to see the cars in the showroom)

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Cheers, Tim.

Reply to
Tim Moore

Reply to
Johnny K

Fiero?????? - are you serious? 944 hands down! German Quality vs. American Trash.

Reply to
Rob Munach

What makes either unreliable (which is what the context says you meant) as a daily driver? Emanuel

Reply to
E Brown

When I was looking for a sports car, my criteria was reliable enough so I didn't have to spend more time working on it than driving it, small enough to be fun, cheap to insure, good handling. My wish list, which included the

944, 914, MR2, Miata, RX7, 280Z, and Fiero, was whittled down thus: The 944 was way out of my price range, both to buy and to maintain. The 914, while cheaper to buy than the 944, was still a Porsche (for better and worse). MR2s are kind of ugly, and rare where I live. The Z I decided was too prone to rust, and I wanted something that would last for a while. The RX7 is too niche, hard to find anyone around that would touch them, and all the ones I saw around here either smoked or didn't run at all. That left the Fiero and the Miata, and so I checked out the newsgroups for each to see wht they were saying about them. The Fiero group had a lot of "how do I fix this, where can I find this part" kind thing going on. The Miata group was all raves about this upgrade, that upgrade, the weekend jaunt through the mountains, basicaly all the fun they were having with them. That pretty much sealed the deal right there.

I petty much have a bias against GM, so that may also have colored ny choice. Even though I had to go to E-Bay, and spent more for my '93 Miata than I could have paid for a Fiero 5 miles from my house, I don't regret it.

Just my 2 cents Tonyrama

Reply to
tonyrama

Somewhat unrelated - but what are owner's thoughts on the 968 vs. 944 issue? I recently test drove a 968 and was really impressed. From the little I read about them - they are supposed to be many differences between the 944s and the 968 - and there are claims that Porsche redesigned a lot of the car in the transition to the 968.

Thanks, Ron.

Reply to
Ron Loewy

Porsche's original plan was to upgrade the 944 S2 into 944 S3 trim. But partway through the development, they realized that so many changes were being made that a whole new generation of that line could and should be brought forward. The 968 was birthed there, and it's a fantastic car to drive. It's has smoother power delivery, better tranny behavior, better grip and handling, a more refined ride, and a much nicer/more comfortable interior warpped in a more modern, stylish body. A 944 Turbo (951) will be quicker 0-60, but the 968 coupe w/ 6 speed can pull off 0-60 in 6.3 seconds and will give a hard run to anything over a canyon road. An intake/exhuast system, an H&R cup kit suspension and better tires will make the 968 an awfuil hard car to catch on tight, twisty roads.

Reply to
Steve Grauman

Unless your in a C-6 or a Z06 Chevrolet Corvette!

Reply to
Ten Hut PFC Moo

Thanks for the writeup - but I was really interested in owner's feedback about them as far as reliability, maintenance costs and living with one. I have always liked the looks of the 944's better, but until recently did not have a chance to drive a 968. When I did, it did strike me as a much nicer car than the 944 from a driver's perspective - but this can be very specific to an individual example - maybe the 944's I drove were not good examples where that 968 is.

I have to admit, I am tempted by this machine. If I can only put a child seat in the back, this thing might become our backup family car.

Ron.

Reply to
Ron Loewy

I drove a 1993 968 as a daily driver for about 6 months last year. I got the car with about 95k - and sold it with 112k. The car was great. One thing I liked about it as a daily driver, was that if I was feeling mellow, and I didnt push the car. It drove like a normal car.... Not like my 930... Which I need to pay full attention to at all times. My

930 is a real beast... But with the 968 - as soon as I really would get on it. It would go. Handled like a charm. And if I did push it to break loose, it was so easy to get it back into control.

reliability was fine. I drove it cross country. I drove it to work every day. I did have a few small problems. When I got it I had to put new brake pads, and adjust the 2 month old timing belt. Then it was fine until about 108k when my clutch went out. I got worried, but it ended up being nothing big. A hydralic line sprung a pin hole leak and I then lost pressure. The car did need to be towed to my shop. My shop is NOT a certified Porsche shop. But they fixed the problem within a few days. Cost me about $150.00 - $90 of which was the part.

I miss the car. It was a beauty... But I had to sell it. couldnt keep 3 cars around...

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Cheers,

Adam

Reply to
Adam Schwartz

They're fairly reliable, at least according to the one 968 owner I know. However, Porsche dealers are slowly becoming more finiky about working on them and parts are becoming harder to get. As of this yeare, the 968 has been down and out for 9 years.

Kind of a silly notion IMHO. If what you want is a fun family car with decent performance you'll get a lot more mileage out of a Subaru Forester XT or a used S4 Avant. In fact, those vehicles will probably be of more use to you than a

968 regardless of if it's ever used to haul the kiddos.
Reply to
Steve Grauman

I already have a family car. I need a backup family car because all my other cars are 2 seaters.

All I need is a machine that will be fun to drive, but will be able to have a child seat in case my wife is away with the family car. Currently, when I need to pick the kid up and my wife can not, because she is working late or what have you - I need to drive to her work and exchange cars. I want to be able to eliminate this extra step.

Ron.

Reply to
Ron Loewy

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If you don't read the article, most of what I have written below won't make any sense.

Clearly Mr. Zimmerman can't read the many ads in Excellance. Going off of Pelican's prices, as I am already there,

Motormounts are $108 each OEM, $65 each aftermarket.

Not $600 a pair

Clutche Kits from

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NA $543 Not $900 Turbo $636 Not $1000

Also, pretty much all Honda's have interference motors, and they are some of the most dependably motors on the road.

$800 for a timing belt? PT Barnum was right. On the plus side, the earlier 911's need there valves adjusted, and engine rebuilds are far more expensive. I have done my t-belt a couple of times without any problems. It is not the difficult.

If you want faster, get a 951, still less expensive than a 911 and faster. The 911 may have better residual value, but you have to pay more up front as well. Neither car is depricating much at this point.

Oh, and since when do 911's not leak oil?

I would also throw the Miata in there as a possible choice. It should be cheaper than either to maintain.

Reply to
Morgan Bullard

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