"Bell the Hybrid"

Hi,

After driving to DC and back for a June 23 hearing about putting noise makers on hybrids for the blind, I submitted my materials for the record, the last week submissions, were open and here they are:

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NHTSA-2008-0108 My documents are: NHTSA-2008-0108-0020 NHTSA-2008-0108-0020.1 NHTSA-2008-0108-0020.2

When the NHTSA turned down my request to present the hybrid electric owner's point of view, they said I could ask questions at the meeting and submit my materials for the record. This meant I was able to review and critique the other presenters and use the extra time to prepare a much better presentation than I'd originally planned. They also kicked off a petition effort to "give hybrid electric owners a seat at the table."

Hybrid electric owners are the ones who will have to pay for any mandated noise makers. By denying my presentation, they essentially exercised "taxation without representation," a policy that didn't work out very well in the past. The letters petitioning Congress have gone out and we will see what happens.

Congress is in recess until Labor Day so other than some minor support efforts, not much is happening. We'll see what happens in the fall. With luck, it will never leave commitee and die with this Congress.

A couple of other fun reads:

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"At the very end of the session, I asked, "What about the bill before Congress, HR 5734? What if it gets passed in August?" He answered, "Don't worry ..." Which means I do worry and so should you unless you are happy with the "Bell the Hybrid Act," HR 5734. ..."

Also:

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"As some of you know, I've been applying my engineering skills to fixing some Congressional nonsense, HR 5734, the "Bell the Hybrid Act" that proposes to put noise makers on all hybrid electrics. With the Congressional recess, nothing will happen until Congress returns in September. So this is a good time to share what has been going on including some background. ..."

Bob Wilson

Reply to
Bob & Holly Wilson
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Try to get them to bell the blind instead.

Reply to
Was Istoben

Thank you for doing this. Tomes

Reply to
Tomes

Even before seeing your message I had contacted my representative expressing opposition to HR 5734 as written because it suggested making vehicles noisier might be mandated. No noise pollution--we have enough.

Thank you for do> Hi,

Reply to
MrTom

Thanks for doing this, Bob.

It was very interesting. It is easier to find your submittals by searching NHTSA-2008-0108-0020

or simply use

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-Al

Reply to
A Sherman
Reply to
Michelle Vadeboncoeur

Has anyone advocating this bill provided any data which correlates pedestrian accidents involving hybrid vehicles to the total number of such accidents with conventional cars, in order to prove (or disprove) that there is not a substantially higher number of such accidents involving a hybrid running in electric mode?

The unfortunate fact is, pedestrians (especially children) are hit by cars all the time. But when they get hit by a hybrid, it makes national news. And instead of realizing that they ran into traffic without looking, it's the fault of the car. Of course, in modern America, nothing is ever the fault of the victim. It must be the quiet cars.

I'll be writing my representatives about this, but I'd like to know if a study is called for, or if any have already been cited in support of this bill.

Thanks for your work > Hi,

Reply to
Mr. G

I once knew someone who worked for the Cincinnati Association of the Blind where her clients tended to have vision that could be corrected to "legally blind." She told me that the usual answer to how they got there was that they drove. I don't think putting whistles on there cars will help other drivers, but it might alert pedestrians, and deer, of course.

What's the equivalent of CAB around here? They specialized in prescribing complex lenses that helped clients to use their remaining vision and connecting the blind population with supportive services.

Reply to
Jean Smith

That would be better than giving one a mailbox across the street on a blind curve. He's gone now. But they should have provided a mirror.

Reply to
Jean Smith

snip

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I had a... relative (my grandmother's 1st cousin. I knew him well) who suffered from macular degeneration. His wife never learned to drive. For about a year, they drove as a team, with her telling him what to do and when. The theory didn't work very well in practice. It was almost like "Hear no Evil, See no Evil".

Ron

Reply to
Ron Hammon

My vision is just fine. Still, she tells me what to do and when. Very distracting, but I keep my mouth shut because she has the .....

Reply to
Was Istoben

Not sure what you're suggesting there but it makes sense to me to use the existing reversing beeper inside the car and place it in the rear hatch lid to at least give some audible warning when reversing to pedestrians. As for forward motion I'd hate to think that a constant beep going forwards is the solution.

Reply to
Lu R

Lu R wrote: ...

Actually to 'bleep' the existing horn.

That is why adding a noise source makes no sense.

Bob Wilson

Reply to
Bob & Holly Wilson

Reply to
fred seaver

Bob,

I appreciate your efforts to inject reason into the legislative process in this issue, although recent history teaches us that reason has little to do with the legislative process. After reviewing the data you presented, I completely agree with your analysis regarding the risk vs. benefit tradeoff, since the data suggest that hybrids are no more responsible for pedestrian accidents than any other vehicle--thus the problem has been identified on the basis of perception alone. Perception can be a dangerous thing to the rational.

What I am wondering is: has Toyota (or any other hybrid manufacturer) weighed in on the issue yet? It seems they have the most to lose--cost associated with developing a solution and loss of sales due to potential for hybrids to become less desirable (and possibly more expensive) to consumers being the first things to come to mind.

History has also taught us that large corporations tend to have more influence on legislation than well-intentioned citizens, no matter how obvious or well-supported their case may be.

- Doug

Reply to
DougSlug

Not likely. This congress extends to the November elections and then there is a short 'lame duck' period. So far, there has yet to be an equivalent bill introduced in the Senate. There is a good chance this bill will die with this Congress.

The riskier issue is California that passed a stealthy version of the same nonsense. If we are lucky, the Governor will not sign it and it too will pass into history.

In the meanwhile, I've successfully detected an NHW11 keyfob signal; identified the center frequency; and the 2.5 kHz, Manchester encoded data. It transmists for .482 seconds, which puts the energy budget at ~16 milli-Joules. However, it is enough to figure out what it will take to make a 'keyfob' for the blind and other at-risk pedestrians.

Bob Wilson

Reply to
Bob & Holly Wilson

. . .

Engineers know this but others often take a different point of view.

Lotus, who makes no hybrid, issued a world wide press release and got a lot of coverage after they put a speaker in a Prius front bumper to play engine noises. This was just an attempt to jerk Toyota around who is beating them in the market place. Also, there is "Fischer" that claims to be making a hybrid but near as I can tell they are just milking the venture capitalists.

It is hard to say because a lot of these 'signals' are subtle. Any corporation foolish enough to make an overt signal tends to get 'killed.' However, in July there was an announcement by a Japanese company of a cell phone that can 'detect cars using the same system used for automated toll booths.'

In the meanwhile, I've had success with a spare NHW11 keyfob. I've mapped the transmit frequency, duration and figured out the data encoding. I've not tried to decrypt the packets, yet, but that is not really required. At a minimum, I can prototype a workable keyfob system and demonstrate it to Congress.

Sad to say but I've learned more about the Congressional legislative system than I ever wished ... at some expense. I never wanted to go into public affairs and this has been a baptism by fire.

All I can say is thanks to everyone who helped me in the past and in particular, those who signed our petition at HybridFest. Of all of the work done, the petitions have given us standing and that was critical to our work.

Bob Wilson

Reply to
Bob & Holly Wilson

I've used my handheld comms receiver (Icom IC-R20, if you're into that sort of thing) for the same purpose, although I didn't get as far as you did since, at the time, I didn't have a particular goal in mind--I was just curious.

I assume your keyfob idea is for the car to detect the proximity of a keyfob carried by an "at risk" pedestrian, then use the horn or something to produce an audible signal. Is that correct? I think this is a workable idea, but my main concern would be that of range. Isn't the range for the SKS system fairly limited by design? Is the range sufficient to provide a warning with reasonable reaction time? That aside, clearly an RF-based approach holds a lot of promise. One could imagine incorporating transmitters into canes, seeing-eye dog harnesses or leashes, etc., so it doesn't increase the burden.

Seems like a cell phone would also be a great starting point--one that is programmed to periodically output a specially encoded signal. The advantage there is the potential for range and for including other types of features (for instance, the phone could speak to the user, say, to give directional or speed information) with little to no incremental cost. Most everybody carries one already anyway. The down side in that case would be that the hybrids would have to be appropriately equipped to receive and act upon the special cell phone signal.

- Doug

Reply to
DougSlug

Correct.

I've measured my car keyfob range at over 100 meters in an empty parking lot and again this evening. Lowering the keyfob to my ankle and it continued to operate.

Yes.

Correct. There are some technical issues but it starts to make the 'smart highway' real.

The Apple G3 with built-in GPS could support differential GPS for accurate angle and distance. However, one challenge is pedestrians, as vehicles, don't have a lot of power.

However, my thinking is 80% of all North American vehicles have remote keyless receivers running at 315 MHz. At this frequency, the wavelength is about 1/3d of meter, which offers some interesting ranging options.

Bob Wilson

Reply to
Bob & Holly Wilson

What about Bicycles. If they bell us, they'll have to bell Bikes.

Reply to
Mr Ed

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